Looking for advice

[PackMan]

Need some advice for our derby in late Jan. There was a major turnover in leadership last year when the 3 committee members with Derby experience went on to Boy Scouts with their sons. Unfortunately, all the current committee members have no experience running a derby. For several reasons, I suspect that I'll have to get involved.

Our pack is small, 29 members, and the last two years we got 15-16 scouts who race derby cars.

Our equipment is a 48', 6 lane, homebuilt wooden track with a photoelectric eye system that indicates who placed 1-3. We haven't used a laptop in the past although this may be a possibility (I think one of the committee members uses one for work). Scoring was done manually. How I don't know, although I hope to find out from the past Committee Chairman. For what is worth, I remember overhearing comments from the crowd at the last derby that at least one and possibly two lanes seemed to run slower than the others. There was some kind of rotation going on since my son's car wasn't always in the same lane, but I can't tell you exactly what the system was.

I would like to offer sound advice to the committee at our meetings when this topic comes up. Obviously, many of the forum members have run or been involved with Derbys for years, so advice from experienced members is greatly appreciated.

Keep in mind that you are dealing with a neophyte who doesn't know many of the terms, i.e. does double elimination mean you lose two races and you're out of the competition? What's a round-robin elimination? Unfortunately, I was too busy taking pictures for the pack newsletter during the last two derbys to pay much attention to the mechanics of how the races were run. I do know that the races were run by den with trophies going to 1-3 places and there was a final for the den winners for the pack 1-3 winners.

I have been reading some of the listings in the forum trying to get a handle on the different methods like Sterns, PPN, etc. To be honest, much of it is over my head. It's been decades since I took Calc in college and Algebra is about as far as I go now. I think that is why I'm having a hard time following some of the theory/explanations. On the other hand, I've been successful in business for over 30 years so I can't be a total idiot-just don't get too technical.

I should say that I think one factor that is important (to me at least) is that the boys get to race as much as possible. They do put a lot of effort into their cars and I think it's a shame they don't get to race more.

Sorry this posting ran so long, but I wanted to include all the info. I felt was pertinent. Thanks in advance.

[gpraceman]

A good place to go for descriptions for many of the race scheduling methods is Darin's website at http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/derby/methods.html

Double elimination does mean two strikes and you are out. Triple elim is 3 strikes, and so on.

I recommend using Stan and Cory's Perfect-N type charts. Every racer will race in every lane (more than once if you like), they will all race the same number of times, and they will race against a multitude of opponents. You can use these charts when scoring by times or points. The final standings are not determined until the last heat is run, so it keeps the racers more involved until the end.

There is a web based chart generator at http://members.aol.com/standcmr/ppngen.html and some of the available software packages have a built-in chart generator to create these.

Since you create the entire schedule before racing starts, you can post it for the racers to view and distribute it to your race crew so everyone will know who is racing in each heat and in what lane.

[michael4262]

Howdy! If you think you will have a laptop available for race day, then I would recommend that you take a look at the software that Mr. Lisano has developed, GrandPrix Race Manager, at http://grandprix-software-central.com/gprm/.

Even if you aren't sure if the timer will interface with the software directly, the software will still allow you to score the race manually. It lets you register racers, generate the race charts, score the races and generate a grand-finals race. Very nifty software. You can also download it for evaluation. I would recommend doing that soon if you plan on going this route, as it will pay to be familiar with it before purchasing.

Also, with the Perfect-N type race where each racer races in every lane, at least once, the lane speed differences are minimized, which should make the parents happy. And, the racers would get to race at least 6 times on your 6 lane track versus 2 times if the racer were double eliminated, which should make the racers happy!

Good luck!

- Mike

[Da Graphite Kid]

PackMan,

Good advice given by Randy and Mike. We happen to use Randy’s GP software along with a timer for our race which is on a three-lane track. Reading your post though I think that the first thing you should find out is what the finish line system you have can report. If it can output to a PC or if it can only report which lane was 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If it can output to a PC and this can be used with Randy’s software than that would be the way to go as you can control the racing method you want to use. If it can truly only show which lane was 1st through 3rd than you options are more limited; as I don’t know how the 4th through 6th place cars would be scored. You may have to look at some alternatives such as: manually determining the 1st through 6th place finishes (by eye), running only three lanes (I guess that you could run 4 lanes as you would know whichever lane did not finish 1st through 3rd would be the 4th place finisher), or purchasing a six lane timer that would either show times/places for 1st through 6th or output this information to a PC.

Due to equipment limitations we have had to run double elimination in past years. For the past three years we have been using Complementary Perfect-N method and the boys and parents like this lots more.


Da Graphite Kid

[Stan Pope]

With or without computers, it is good for folks to be able to follow the progress of racing. If you are using a charted method, then project the charts on a screen or wall. Before computer projectors, I used a "transparency projector" with the chart copied onto a transparency. The heat results were written on the transparency using a special felt tip pen made for that purpose.

If you are using a 'no chart multiple elimination' method in which the boys race their own cars, then progress can be seen by which groups each of the boys is in.

With some loss of accuracy, you can use the equipment you have with PPN charts / final standings based on points for heat finishes by assigning 4 points for first place finish, 3 points for 2nd place finish, 2 points for 3rd place finish and 1 point each for 4th through 6th place (i.e. tied for 4th-6th). This keeps you from having to eyeball the finish sequence for those cars.

Or, you could run the cars three or four at a time using just the most evenly matched lanes on your track.

If you are running the large group all together, consider a two-staged race in which the first stage is PPN. Use the first stage to select the fastest group of cars with size 7 or 13 that is about twice as many as places for which you give trophies. This raises the probability that all the fastest cars made the finals. Then run a PN or CPN final involving those cars. I've got a web page analyzing this if it is of interest.

[Stan Pope]

With or without computers, it is good for folks to be able to follow the progress of racing. If you are using a charted method, then project the charts on a screen or wall. Before computer projectors, I used a "transparency projector" with the chart copied onto a transparency. The heat results were written on the transparency using a special felt tip pen made for that purpose.

If you are using a 'no chart multiple elimination' method in which the boys race their own cars, then progress can be seen by which groups each of the boys is in.

With some loss of accuracy, you can use the equipment you have with PPN charts / final standings based on points for heat finishes by assigning 4 points for first place finish, 3 points for 2nd place finish, 2 points for 3rd place finish and 1 point each for 4th through 6th place (i.e. tied for 4th-6th). This keeps you from having to eyeball the finish sequence for those cars.

Or, you could run the cars three or four at a time using just the most evenly matched lanes on your track.

If you are running the large group all together, consider a two-staged race in which the first stage is PPN. Use the first stage to select the fastest group of cars with size 7 or 13 that is about twice as many as places for which you give trophies. This raises the probability that all the fastest cars made the finals. Then run a PN or CPN final involving those cars. I've got a web page analyzing this if it is of interest.

[PackMan]

I would like to thank everyone for their fast response and advice.

I spoke with the past chairman tonight and I would like to update/correct the information I posted originally for anyone else who's reading this thread.

There are 5 lanes, not six. One lane is definately slower than the rest. One other lane may be marginally slower-it seems to have more losers but some people do win on it.

The timer was built in late 50's or early 60's so its a safe bet there's no way it will interface with a PC. The timer does only indicate 1st through 3rd positions. One of the committee members does have a laptop that we could use.

We have used a double-elimination in the past for scoring.

[michael4262]

PackMan: We have run double elimination at our derby for the last 3 years and I must admit, it was somewhat dissatisfying. We created the charts by hand and posted the results on a large sheet behind the scorer table.

The double elimination, in my opinion, provided too few runs per racer. After getting so excited and pumped up for the race, many of the racers (and dads) were saddened to see their creations get to run only twice.

It sounds like you have an opportunity to explore a possibly more satisfying solution. You could eliminate 2 of your lanes (the slow ones) and simply run your race on the 3 best lanes. This also would work well with your curent timer setup where only the top 3 finishers are indicated.

By using a Perfect-N race chart, you could easily have your racers run a minimum of 3 times and with the number of racers that you have had (15 - 20), you may even be able to run twice in each lane, giving a minimum of 6 runs per racer. Siginificantly increasing the number of runs per racer!

Once again, our Pack is going with the GrandPrix Race Manager software that allows us to use the laptop to setup and run the entire race. If you aren't going to go with a software solution, you could certainly calculate the heats by using some of the tools mentioned above that can be accessed on the internet.

- Mike

[Stan Pope]

It sounds like you have an opportunity to explore a possibly more satisfying solution. You could eliminate 2 of your lanes (the slow ones) and simply run your race on the 3 best lanes. This also would work well with your curent timer setup where only the top 3 finishers are indicated.

Actually you can run on 4 lanes true final standings PPN, since if the hardware identifies 1st thru 3rd, the remaining lane is 4th!

And running in 3 lanes, you can run a quintuple (5 loss) elimination in approximately the same time as a 2-lane double elim.