Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
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gpraceman
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:I need to formulate a plan to propose a change. A change that will be accepted by the uninformed. Unfortunately our Committee Chairman and new Cubmaster are traditionalists who don't like change. It's like shoveling snow into the wind.
I do hate trying to deal with people like that. Whether dealing with people resistant to change or not, when looking at a new way of doings things (tying back to the topic of this thread) draw up a list of advantages and disadvantages to the way you do it now and the way that is proposed. Hopefully, this will lead to a good discussion and an intelligent decision on what is best for the kids and the organization, whatever that decision is. Some people really don't know what all the disadvantages are with the method they are using or intend to use, so they are not making an informed decision.
Pinewood Daddy wrote:
gpraceman wrote: You can still keep the kids involved. They can stage their cars on the start line and retrieve them from the finish to take them back to the staging table. It also gives your race crew a big advantage in that it can get cars (and kids) pre-staged to keep the heats flowing quickly.
Out of curiosity, how do you get the kids away from the race and stage them at the start line??
Have one adult responsible for staging the cars and another one or two adults responsible for getting the kids up to the staging area. The MC can also help by announcing who's on deck.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

Stan Pope wrote:
gpraceman wrote:Running an elimination style race, or any type of "dynamic" schedule will run slower, since pre-staging opportunities are greatly reduced.
I think that this is incorrect. The prestaging of PPN, No-Chart Multiple Elimination and most charted elimination systems is readily "knowable" several heats ahead.
But not past the current level on the elim ladder. As you move to the next levels you cannot see as far into the future with regards to the matchups. With a non-elim "static" chart, you know the schedule from the first heat to the last heat. It can be posted for the crowd to see and given to the race crew for aid in prestaging cars.
Stan Pope wrote:I contend that the "nochart" system can in fact run more quickly than charted systems, because of the participation of the scouts to retrieve their onw cars and bring them to the starting line!
Maybe so, but I think your elimination system is the exception to the rule.
Stan Pope wrote:
gpraceman wrote:With and elimination style race you also quickly lose the interest of those that are eliminated.
A quintuple elim for 50 cars, running 3 cars at a time, has the following characteristics:
With quintuple elim, you are just delaying the elimination point. It does keep racers involved longer, but still they can lose interest once "eliminated".
Stan Pope wrote:Some folks think that noone should know anything about the status of the competition until the racing is done. They say that it increases the suspense. In that case, the parents might as well not even come to the races until the races are over! Suspense builds as the possibilities are recognized and clarified! That happens as information becomes available.
Some like the suspense and some like the mystery. Personally, I like running a two round format, using the first round to determine the top finishers and then a final round to determine the trophies. It is a blend of both.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

gpraceman wrote: With quintuple elim, you are just delaying the elimination point. It does keep racers involved longer, but still they can lose interest once "eliminated".
Straying once again, with Lane Rotation they're eliminated after their 4 races. Talk about losing interest!
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:Straying once again, with Lane Rotation they're eliminated after their 4 races. Talk about losing interest!
See, there you go. You are already on your way to listing the advantages/disadvantages of your current system. :wink:
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Stan Pope »

gpraceman wrote:
Stan Pope wrote: I think that this is incorrect. The prestaging of PPN, No-Chart Multiple Elimination and most charted elimination systems is readily "knowable" several heats ahead.
But not past the current level on the elim ladder. As you move to the next levels you cannot see as far into the future with regards to the matchups. With a non-elim "static" chart, you know the schedule from the first heat to the last heat.
Our differences are so small ... we think too much alike, Randy!

How far ahead do we need to see in order for pre-staging to peak the heats/minute rate? Probably no more than 3 or 4. That takes you deeply into an elimination style race, charted or uncharted.

The problem with the big butcher paper charts is that is is difficult to find your own kid in the chart ... not enough people can sit close enough to read the charts! By comparison, most Mothers and many Dads can pick their kid out of a crowd in moments. So, when "no-chart" manages by bunches, it is easy for parents to assess how he is doing and about when he will race again ... once they learn the simple pattern.
"Hey! Four rounds and he is still in group 1! Way to go, Johnny!!!" or
"Oh, oh! Four rounds done and he is in group 3. Stage it carefully, Johnny!" or
"Oh!!! Four rounds done and he is in group 5. Hang in there, Johnny!!! Next year we'll spend more time at Derby Talk!"
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Stephen's Dad »

Wow!

Dave - Don't worry. No one is trying to keep Stephen or Craig (most competitive builders in our Pack) from the trophy round. Just the opposite. We're trying to match like performing cars against each other DURING the race so that no one has to bear watching a car getting slaughtered for more than a couple heats. The Boys really LIKE a contest & I like to hear cheering & see smiles all around. Even from the boys who use those wobbly #12's I was telling you about.

So we arrive at several conclusions.

Dave's Pack's Pinewood Committee is a thick bunch that really needs "quintuple elimination". But then we already knew this. LOL

My Pack is trying very hard to make the PWD more "Scout Inclusive" & more fun. The MC will call the "on deck" racers who will bring their own cars around. I'd have them staging their own cars (supervised) but haven't time to build a staircase for the boys in a borrowed gymnasium between other events.

My only fear is for the accuracy of the outcome.

Randy - Can GPRM be utilized to run this "multiple elimination" style racing? Can I at least still use it to time every heat so that if a very competitive situation develops I can still extract the data for on-site review? I believe this is possible even if the software isn't actually "running" the race.

Heck - - Can GPRM already run this thing as it is? There are a lot of different race formats in there. Lane rotation, however fast & accurate it is, really is a boring & predictable affair. I could have finished our Council race in 15 minutes last year & would have but that we needed to stall for time so as to sell more Lemonade.

For the record, this guy works for Lowe's & has a MASSIVE board (sixteen feet I think) that the charts will be on. The goal is to make sure everyone knows what is going on & can see what is coming up at all times.

I'd be just as happy to shoot it onto the screen with a media projector IF GPRM can handle it.

I get the feeling that modern technology should be compatible with "old school" so as to get the best of both worlds.

Having the Derby take 2 hours is a GOOD thing if the Boys are having fun.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

Stan Pope wrote:Our differences are so small ... we think too much alike, Randy!
I take that as a big compliment!
Stephen's Dad wrote:Randy - Can GPRM be utilized to run this "multiple elimination" style racing? Can I at least still use it to time every heat so that if a very competitive situation develops I can still extract the data for on-site review? I believe this is possible even if the software isn't actually "running" the race.
Run it yes, manage it no. As I responded earlier in the thread, you can use GPRM to display the heat results using the Test/Tiebreak functionality. You will only see generic racers listed on the screen, instead of the racer names. GPRM also will not record the results. If you want to see the racers on the screen and have their times recorded, you would have to manually build each heat before you run it (ad-hoc racing functionality). You can do this using the Manual Heats button on the racing screen. It involves more work on your part. If you are talking about Stan's quintuple elimination method, it would really slow things down to try to record everything into the computer.
Stephen's Dad wrote:Lane rotation, however fast & accurate it is, really is a boring & predictable affair. I could have finished our Council race in 15 minutes last year & would have but that we needed to stall for time so as to sell more Lemonade.
As I discussed with Pinewood Daddy earlier in this thread, LR is very boring and I would recommend running the Perfect-N type charts over LR in most all situations. They lead to a much more exciting race and greatly increase the odds of racers getting at least one heat win (and thus having a better experience at the race). LR has its place in some situations, but most races should really do without it.

So, I see that you and Pinewood Daddy are both from Connecticut. Are you also from the same pack?
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Stan Pope »

FWIW, here are the "race management tools" that I use for Quintuple Elimination racing:

Image

You can see the group number stamps (homemade) and stamp pad used by the score keeper,
Group Number paddles used by group leaders,
Draw tokens, "hat" and draw rules used by a person just ahead of the starter, and
Three sets of Staging tokens given to those who draw lane numbers.
Starter calls the racers up to stage their cars by color, collects the tokens as each car is staged, and recycles the tokens after staging is complete.

The detailed procedures for these track staff jobs are shown at http://wotamalo.wdboyce.org/wdpwdRace.pdf (Note that the draw procedure was revised this year and runs with 5 tokens when 5 or more racers are left in the line awaiting to race. Also, there is a redundant set of draw tokens in case of loss ... those poker chips can really roll when dropped on a gym floor! And once in a while they end up in someone's pocket!)

Draw Procedure (This is the text of the page on the left side of the pic):
Tokens 1-2-3-X-X:

Following tells how to handle draw based on how many boys are left in line for the current group:

5 or more: Next 5 draw.
4: Next in line draw until 2 have drawn lane numbers.
3, 2, or 1: Remove both X's, all draw.

After draw:
Tell the racers, "This is the order in which you should go up to stage your car." Exchange Staging Tokens for Draw Tokens in staging number order. (Start with the lane number closest to the starter.) Send boys to retrieve cars from pit. Keep Staging Tokens grouped by color. Collect X's, if any, and send holder to front of line for next draw.

Keys:
Watch for end of group (end of line OR Group leader of next group.)
Stay ahead of starter.
After each group has been reduced to 1 racer, I use the procedure at http://members.aol.com/standcmr/finals.pdf to determine final trophy places. The idea is that each group has one more loss than the group just above it. So, to "unseat" that higher group racer, the lower must win twice, whereas the higher need win once. (The result is not a "complete quintuple elim" but attempting to run to 5 losses all against the same opponent would distort the process badly.)

Storage for one track's tools is pretty simple:

Image
Last edited by Stan Pope on Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

gpraceman wrote: So, I see that you and Pinewood Daddy are both from Connecticut. Are you also from the same pack?
We are from the same Council. Last year we met through DerbyTalk! Last year we went to each others District races, and my boys were invited to the Council race that he ran.

I can't wait to see how this races comes out, first hand!!

I now understand why Steve wants to do this very long Bracket method - Sell More Lemonaide!!! That stuff was really good!!!

Randy - Yes, I really need to list the + & -'s of both LR and Perfect-N. Maybe I can find a way to get through to the "thick'eds" in my Pack.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by Stephen's Dad »

gpraceman wrote:
Stephen's Dad wrote:Randy - Can GPRM be utilized to run this "multiple elimination" style racing? Can I at least still use it to time every heat so that if a very competitive situation develops I can still extract the data for on-site review? I believe this is possible even if the software isn't actually "running" the race.
Run it yes, manage it no. As I responded earlier in the thread, you can use GPRM to display the heat results using the Test/Tiebreak functionality. You will only see generic racers listed on the screen, instead of the racer names. GPRM also will not record the results. If you want to see the racers on the screen and have their times recorded, you would have to manually build each heat before you run it (ad-hoc racing functionality). You can do this using the Manual Heats button on the racing screen. It involves more work on your part. If you are talking about Stan's quintuple elimination method, it would really slow things down to try to record everything into the computer.

So, I see that you and Pinewood Daddy are both from Connecticut. Are you also from the same pack?
Same Council - different Districts. We do share a passion for PWD that transcends the conventional borders. LOL

So if I set the program for a 2-lane track & have all of the racers entered by car number before the race can I still manipulate the program to record the race as long as we manually enter the heat results?
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

Stephen's Dad wrote:So if I set the program for a 2-lane track & have all of the racers entered by car number before the race can I still manipulate the program to record the race as long as we manually enter the heat results?
No need to manually enter the heat results. If you manually add the heat using the Manual Heats button, you can then run the heat like you have done before when using your timer. Then you have a record of the heats and of the results.

IMO, you would be taking a HUGE step backwards to go from a non-elim style race on 4 lanes to a elimination bracket style with 2 lanes. Make sure you really know what you are getting yourself (and your pack) in for. At least take a look at Stan's quintuple elim method. That ensures accurate trophy results and gives all racers plenty of racing.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by SuperDave »

I just know that Randy has been waiting for me to jump in here, so here I go, but lets start off with a quote from Stan
A quintuple elim for 50 cars, running 3 cars at a time, has the following characteristics:...of the expected 147 heats)
This looks suspiciously like lanes times the [number of cars minus 1], so you can figure the number of races for other numbers of lanes and cars. 50 racers on a four lane track would be 196 races. (Stan please let me know if I'm wrong.)

In contrast, average time racing (every car runs every lane and their times are averaged with the least time winning) will run 52 heats for 50 cars on a three lane track, 53 heats on a four lane track. Summation of the times is no different in this regard. The actual formula is the [number of cars plus the number of lanes] -1 assuming that every car runs every lane once.

In contrast to chart racing which generally finds a few winners, lots of losers and eliminates cars along the way, average time racing finds winners overall, winners in subgroups (an easy computer sort), team winners (an easy computer average) and, if done right, lots of different heat winners and lots of close races. Again, summation time racing would have no reason not to produce the same multiple results.

Whether or not Grand Prix Race Manager supports all these functions is for Randy to comment on.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by gpraceman »

SuperDave wrote:In contrast to chart racing which generally finds a few winners, lots of losers and eliminates cars along the way
I would disagree with that point, if you are trying to apply it to a non-elim charted method. With an elimination bracket, then I would agree.

With a charted non-elim method, you can still have subgroup winners and "team" winners. Both of which GPRM does support (since you brought it up).
SuperDave wrote:In contrast, average time racing (every car runs every lane and their times are averaged with the least time winning) will run 52 heats for 50 cars on a three lane track, 53 heats on a four lane track. Summation of the times is no different in this regard. The actual formula is the [number of cars plus the number of lanes] -1 assuming that every car runs every lane once.
Is lane equity assured? If so, then what is the purpose of the heats >50?

With many charted non-elim methods (Stearns is one of the exceptions) lane equity is assured and the total number of heats will equal the number of cars multiplied by the number of times they run in each lane. So, running once per lane, there are only 50 heats. With these particular methods lane equity can generally be assured.
Last edited by gpraceman on Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by SuperDave »

No need. Stephen's Dad is well familiar with GPRM.
Stephen's Dad is not the only one reading this topic.

Oops, I just discovered that you edited your post to
It does, but that really is not the topic of this thread. Nor is the capabilities of your software.
I did a quick search of the term "GPRM" in the topic. I don't think the results support your assertion.
SuperDave

Re: Bracket Style Tournament Racing?

Post by SuperDave »

Wow, it keeps changing.
Is lane equity assured? If so, then what is the purpose of the heats >50?
50 is not evenly divisible by three or four. In a four lane system, 52 heats will be run by 49, 50, 51 or 52 cars.
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