Triple Elimination Format???????

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
Post Reply
User avatar
Scoremaker
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:28 pm
Location: Watauga,Texas

Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Scoremaker » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:19 pm

Hello everyone its been a long time scene I been on here. I need to know how does a Triple Elimination Format works on a seven lane track? Also it all depends on the number of participants will be racing? I'M thinking there might be around 100 or more i'm not yet sure on this. This race start in two months, and I need to explain to the parents and kids how this system work's before we drive and hour away to do this. So Stan show me your work.



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Stan Pope » Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:55 pm

Scoremaker wrote:Hello everyone its been a long time scene I been on here. I need to know how does a Triple Elimination Format works on a seven lane track? Also it all depends on the number of participants will be racing? I'M thinking there might be around 100 or more i'm not yet sure on this. This race start in two months, and I need to explain to the parents and kids how this system work's before we drive and hour away to do this. So Stan show me your work.
Alas, I have no charts for triple elimination, but I have a "no chart triple elimination" solution for you ... If your nerves can stand running without charts!

See http://members.aol.com/standcmr/nelim.html. Think about how many of those lanes you really want to use and what kind of elimination criteria you want/need to set For instance, if you ran 7 lanes of racers at a time, you could give the first place in the heat a "win" or you could give, maybe, the first three places in each heat a "win". The latter pares the mob down more slowly, but that may be okay. (There is a simulator on the referenced page to see how many heats it takes to run.) Then let's talk about how to randomize the group without making it into a "paper system" Then let's talk about special cases when the score groups get small. Finally, let's talk about what to do when you have one unbeaten racer left, one once-beaten racer left and one twice-beaten racer left. For a "triple elimination" in the truest sense, you aren't done racing! :)


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

User avatar
Scoremaker
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:28 pm
Location: Watauga,Texas

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Scoremaker » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:33 am

Okay I went to a Awana Training Day in 2009 they had class how to run a Grand prix. I went to see if we can change they way he runs his State Grand prix. That did not happen at all stuck in his old ways. The two things I ask was that the people who bring the track to the event they have a timer on there 7 lane track WHY can use it. His answer was if you have one bad time then your done for. The second answer I ask was that we race against the same 7 people is there any way that we can race against different people. He told everyone he like driver license system you have three Awana Grand Prix symbols on it if you place's in the top 3 your safe 4th thru 7th get mark. I do not know if there is a committee or board to change how he runs this Grand Prix. Any suggestion?



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:44 am

Do I understand that in the present system 7 racers race against each other repeatedly, probably changing lanes, and each time you finish 4th-7th against them uses up one or your three elimination counts? Wow! I'm not fond of any system that does not give you lots of variety in opponents. In general, you expect a racer in a triple elim to lose to three different people, but you expect to meet them at various times during the competition... not in a cluster! and not on a track that probably has a lot of lane to lane variability. (And there is one scheme "out there" which would consider a 4th place finish in a heat as satisfying the 3-loss elimination criteria in just bad run, perhaps on the slowest lane of the track! Hopefully that is not the system you are concerned with.)


We have a number of folks here who are active with AWANA, so you should be able to get some more knowledgeable inputs about AWANA organization and/or "chain of command."

Timers are nice for preparation and useful information to have about your car. But they introduce some possibly nasty problems when they "burp," especially when a lot of folks come from miles away for a one-day event. It can be really hard to recover to Plan B when Plan A breaks part way through the competition.

Timers also change the definition of "fastest" from what it is now.

Some systems "toss" the worst time, which helps the "one bad run" problem, but it skews the statistics and lends some advantage to the less consistent cars. (Consider a competition between two cars with identical 8-run averages but different standard deviations. Toss the worst time for each and the car with the higher standard deviation almost always wins. In fact he frequently wins even if his 8-run average is a bit slower!)

My message is that racing by times is not an obviously better choice in all circumstances. Lotsa thought about many aspects needs to go into the choice.


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

User avatar
Scoremaker
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:28 pm
Location: Watauga,Texas

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Scoremaker » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:46 pm

Hey Stan do you think I can change his mine on anyway that he can run it different? Like each person has a there own number, and that person can pull numbers out of a bag so that each racer can meet someone new? I been wanted to email this person for almost 5 months to see if he can change anyway how he runs this Grand Prix. Also by not hurting his feelings or how he runs it too.



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:38 pm

Scoremaker wrote:Hey Stan do you think I can change his mine on anyway that he can run it different? Like each person has a there own number, and that person can pull numbers out of a bag so that each racer can meet someone new? I been wanted to email this person for almost 5 months to see if he can change anyway how he runs this Grand Prix. Also by not hurting his feelings or how he runs it too.
Very likely, the organization leadership delegates the "derby" function with some general guidelines and, until there appears to be a problem with its operation, they will continue to "let it run."

Change management starts with an organization's desire to change. Creating thet desire comes first from recognition of substantial membership dissatisfaction with the status quo. Then it needs (identification and) recognition of specific problems or missed opportunities for improvement (the sources of dissatisfaction) and identification of specific improvements showing how each makes the activity better.

Once those alternatives have been identified the organization needs to evaluate the value and effect of each. Do the alternatives satisfy the organizations needs? Are there side effects or "unintended consequences" that need to be managed? If so, what is the impact of that managment.

Your basic concern should be to learn whether there is significant dissatisfaction with the status quo, and, if so, to raise that dissatisfaction to the attention of the organization's leadership. So far, nothing you have said tells me that there is such dissatisfaction or that the alternatives as you have defined them fit the organization's requirements. There is "homework" to be done.


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

User avatar
davem
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Wellington, Florida

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by davem » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:42 am

Agree with Stan.

I have been involved with Awana regional Grand Prix for 7 or 8 years now.
Both in Ohio and Florida.

There is little / no guidance from Awana HQ on the operations / rules / procedures for these regional events.
It is basically up to the regional Awana missionary - to determine IF they will have one, and WHO will run / coordinate it.
The volunteers who run these events - usually have been doing it for several years, and have "gone through" several Awana missionaries in their tenure.

Sounds like you have approached the coordinator - and he isn't willing to entertain a change.
I would suggest:
- contact your Awana Commander - let him / her know you have energy to improve the way things are done, and would like their support. Find out who the Awana Commanders are for the other clubs in your region...or who the Awana missionary is.
- contact the other Awana Commanders with the same message. Ask to speak with their local race coordinator - and, possibly - the parents of the clubbers who have gone to previous regional derbies.
- I think you will find (as I did)
--many clubbers / parents / local coordinators are dissatisfied with the regional format. And have chose not to participate rather than "rock the boat".
--many will support you - if you lead the change.
--many will be happy to have their local Awana Commander support you - if you lead the change.

-with this support in hand (as Stan said - proof that the status quo needs changing) - contact the regional coordinator with your concerns / recommendations / offer to help
- if the regional coordinator is not willing to cooperate - contact the Awana Missionary. They will make changes if they feel the current format is driving clubbers / parents / local clubs away from participating.

The Missionaries evaluate the benefits and costs of running these regional derbies every year.
They want clubbers / parents to participate.
Many are seeing a decline in participation - and thus reconsidering if they should continue to run these.
Your willingness to help should be viewed as positive...but be ready to take over.



User avatar
Scoremaker
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:28 pm
Location: Watauga,Texas

Re: Triple Elimination Format???????

Post by Scoremaker » Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:19 pm

I got to email one Awana Development Missionary with my problem about how this race is run. She sent my email to Outreach Missionaries. I email him again with the problem we been having for the last two year on Grand Prix. He told me that he was not there last year but plans to be there this year. I ask that I will help run the Derby or run a State in my area so that the two can meet for the Finals but he told me NO that we have too many events going on and that he does not want to add another event,and that the guy who been running this Grand Prix for a long time,and that he will forward any information that I said ask to be change. I even quoted thing that Stan said on here by paste it on my email. If thing do not go well this year i'll do what you said Davem and Stan (as Stan said - proof that the status quo needs changing) we have four Lead Missionaries,Church Care Missionaries,Development Missionary,Outreach Missionaries the only two I have not email are the Lead and Church Care.



Post Reply