Completely clueless
Completely clueless
OK I'll admit I am completely clueless as to what my best avenue is.
Two groups of racers.Less then 8 in first group ,up to 22 in second group.Two lane track with no time capabilities this year.
Problem: Parents couldn't understand double elimination last year and don't want to confuse two many people this year. Plus want to make sure the kids get to race more then two times(example double elimination).
Placing for 1,2,3.
What do you guys suggest for a nice SIMPLE solution to this problem.
Two groups of racers.Less then 8 in first group ,up to 22 in second group.Two lane track with no time capabilities this year.
Problem: Parents couldn't understand double elimination last year and don't want to confuse two many people this year. Plus want to make sure the kids get to race more then two times(example double elimination).
Placing for 1,2,3.
What do you guys suggest for a nice SIMPLE solution to this problem.
Re: Completely clueless
With only two lanes and no timing electronics, the only choice I see is an elimination style race. I would recommend Stan Pope's "No Chart N-Elimination" method. Play around with the Java script program he has there to help you determine the best elimination method (double, triple, etc...) time-wise that you would need (estimate about 1.5 minutes per heat as an average).
As to getting everyone to understand an elimination method, a lot of it has to do with the way it is presented. I've run Stan's elimination method using triple elimination. I usually explain it to the parents as a "three strikes, you're out" method. I tell them that in order to stay in the race, they have to keep winning. They are allowed two losses, and if they loose a third time, they are eliminated from the race. That's really all they need to know, the rest of it is in the method you are applying and only you need to know that. I don't think it gets much simpler than this.
If you need to explain Stan's method to other Derby Committee members, I've done this before using an ordinary deck of playing cards. First explain to them that each card represents a car and that a "pecking order" needs to be established. I usually tell them Ace is the fastest and two is the slowest. If two or more of the same card appear in the same heat the "pecking order" is then Spades beats Hearts, Hearts beats Clubs and Clubs beats Diamonds. Shuffle the deck and count out the number of cards equal to the number of cars in the race. Put the remaining cards away, and proceed to do the "No Chart N-Elimination" method, laying out cards (cars) randomly for each heat and placing the winners in their appropriate groups (no losses, one loss, two loss, etc..). As you eliminate cards (cars) your groups will get smaller until you have one card (car) left in each group. If you compare those cards against all that you have eliminated, you'll find that these are the highest ranking cards in the "pecking order" (your finalists). Everyone that I've showed this method to grasps it rather easily. At the actual race, you can always use index cards with the car and racers information on them to duplicate the exact same procedure.
-Nitro Dan
As to getting everyone to understand an elimination method, a lot of it has to do with the way it is presented. I've run Stan's elimination method using triple elimination. I usually explain it to the parents as a "three strikes, you're out" method. I tell them that in order to stay in the race, they have to keep winning. They are allowed two losses, and if they loose a third time, they are eliminated from the race. That's really all they need to know, the rest of it is in the method you are applying and only you need to know that. I don't think it gets much simpler than this.
If you need to explain Stan's method to other Derby Committee members, I've done this before using an ordinary deck of playing cards. First explain to them that each card represents a car and that a "pecking order" needs to be established. I usually tell them Ace is the fastest and two is the slowest. If two or more of the same card appear in the same heat the "pecking order" is then Spades beats Hearts, Hearts beats Clubs and Clubs beats Diamonds. Shuffle the deck and count out the number of cards equal to the number of cars in the race. Put the remaining cards away, and proceed to do the "No Chart N-Elimination" method, laying out cards (cars) randomly for each heat and placing the winners in their appropriate groups (no losses, one loss, two loss, etc..). As you eliminate cards (cars) your groups will get smaller until you have one card (car) left in each group. If you compare those cards against all that you have eliminated, you'll find that these are the highest ranking cards in the "pecking order" (your finalists). Everyone that I've showed this method to grasps it rather easily. At the actual race, you can always use index cards with the car and racers information on them to duplicate the exact same procedure.
-Nitro Dan
Last edited by Nitro Dan on Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Completely clueless
Couple of choices:Dave Burg wrote:What do you guys suggest for a nice SIMPLE solution to this problem.
No-Chart Quadruple elimination (minimum 4 contested heats, average about 6 heats, or Quintuple Eliminatino (mnimum 5 contested heats, average about 8 heat. No-Chart is easier to understand than charted DE race. See http://members.aol.com/standcmr/nelim.html
Charted PPN For as many rounds as you like. Drawback on this is that PPN is not always exactly balanced in opponents. But you may use it select "finalists" which you may be confident includes the fastest three racers. See http://members.aol.com/standcmr/ppngen.html and http://members.aol.com/standcmr/pwmevalc.html
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: Completely clueless
Thanks guys I'll be looking all this over and come to a decision. I am almost positive they are going to buy a timer for next year but we'll see.
This is a great forum and I am seeing alot of neat ideas.Plus I always thought double elimination was pretty fair but after reading some of these posts I can see how my logic was flawed.
This is a great forum and I am seeing alot of neat ideas.Plus I always thought double elimination was pretty fair but after reading some of these posts I can see how my logic was flawed.
- Stan Pope
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Re: Completely clueless
DE is "fair" but lacks accuracy beyond 2 places. I like methods that give boys more heats! Ask 'em ... "Would you rather race twice or 5 times?" Oh... you don't need to ask?
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: Completely clueless
Yeah it's the parents that don't want to stay to long.LOL
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Re: Completely clueless
I did a process analysis on running three cars at a time wth the boys staging their own cars, walking to the finish line before the cars are released. For a 32' track the best reasonable time was 36 seconds per heat ... if every track staff member does his job instead of watching the race! The reason is that each position on the track staff really only needs to interface with two other positions: one ahead and one behind. For instance, the starter, once the cars are released to start the race should immediately turn to the next group of racers to get them up to stage their cars. Many starters want to take a few tens of seconds to watch the heats after they are released.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: Completely clueless
Our pack used 5 round chartless elimination - and the scouts loved it.
One thing, and this applies to any race method, make sure you have
some way to communicate race results to the audience. We used a
whiteboard with magnets. Color coded for rank (bear, wolf, etc.) and
number coded for Den (cars 91,92,93 all came from Den 9).
We went a little overboard and made drivers licenses, with numbers, so
the kids wouldn't forget the number.
Running the derby - it's a lot easier to say 93 than Joey Smith 5 or 6
times. It also helps with the difficult to pronounce names
One thing, and this applies to any race method, make sure you have
some way to communicate race results to the audience. We used a
whiteboard with magnets. Color coded for rank (bear, wolf, etc.) and
number coded for Den (cars 91,92,93 all came from Den 9).
We went a little overboard and made drivers licenses, with numbers, so
the kids wouldn't forget the number.
Running the derby - it's a lot easier to say 93 than Joey Smith 5 or 6
times. It also helps with the difficult to pronounce names
"Nooby"
- Stan Pope
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Re: Completely clueless
Good point. If boys are racing their own cars and at the finish line, judge can simply hold up the wrist of the heat winner(s)! Like a referee in a prize fight!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"