I want to scream!!!!

[Dave Burg]

Alright I am ready to scream or punch a wall. Just got off the phone with our Awana leaders and I'm feeling a bit upset. After hearing complaints for years at the Grand Prix about everything from results of races,condition of track,number of races the kids get run,time it takes to run the event, to not understanding race procedure's I started working on solving these problems. Yeah I know this is my fault for stepping up but this is what we accomplished.
For years the group would run a single elimination bracket for each group and the winner of that first bracket would receive the first place trophy for speed.They then would run the all cars again excluding the winning car,the winner of this bracket would receive second place.This would continue again for third place.

1. We solved the track problem by getting rid of the VERY poor condition wooden track and replaced it with a Best track.

2. To solve the results issues we also purchased a Judge for taking the human element out of the loop.

3. We went to a double elimination format last year(I know now not the best thing.) to try and set up a quicker and better way for the kids to race. I never realized how many people did not understand bracketing or a double elimination format. We got complaints about not being able to follow the results even though everything was written on a large dry erase board.We have a small church with less then 30 kids running and maybe only 20 in one group.
I did lots of research through out the year and then I found this forum and a lot of my questions were answered. I was all set to use the point system so we could have a more fair way of running the races,give the kids more guaranteed runs and cut down on the number of actual races run.
In previous years we would run nearly 60 races for just our biggest group and like I said some kids would only race 3 times if they were unlucky. Not much fun in that!

I was set to run a 4 round race that would leave us with a total of 44 races if all our kids showed up on race day. I thought that would leave us taking care of the time AND the more race complaints.Plus we are receiving our new Judge tomorrow with the timing capability. When I called to let our leaders hear the good news I was told that we would be running the old single elimination brackets. So good bye to research and study I'm not sure WHAT we're going to do with the timing capability now that I've paid for it. Someone said that we can just post the times alongside the names on the brackets as they go through. I can see the chaos now when Johnny's car has the some of the fastest times but is knocked out by one car and never gets a trophy for speed.
I'm sorry for ranting on here as a newbie but like I said I'm ready to explode and my wife says I need to just forget about it,but how do you forget about two years of work? Oh well at least I've gotten in out of my system.LOL

[Stan Pope]

It is okay to scream, Dave. You are among friends here! We know the frustration intimately! And we have ear protection handy.

It may be worth the effort to discuss the plans you were informed of with the folks who made the decision. They deserve the benefit of the study that you have done. They may or may not change their minds ... this year ... but you would be laying the groundwork for more successful events in subsequent years.

As for posting the times along side each competitors name ... the outcry may just be enough to affect the decision next year.

[Dave Burg]

What I WANT to do is is shove some of these discussions under some noses and tell show them how much better we can do but I keep remembering I'm supposed to be a rational adult now,

[davem]

Dave Burg,

You may want to suggest the Awana Commander accompany you to observe another club's race (one that uses a points or time system and race management software that is displayed for the audience to see).

Seeing is believing sometimes...
Your State Awana Missionary can probably recommend some other clubs to visit and put you in contact with the race / Awana leaders there.

[Stan Pope]

As I wrote the last response, I had those "HAL feelings", Dave. I hope that it was read as intended.

It sounds as though those with "the power" viewed last year as "a failed experiment" and reacted by withdrawing to "familiar safe (good?) ground." You could ask that they share their thinking with you, since you are the event chairman (right term?). You have developed some expertise in the mechanics, philosophy and politics of the event.

[joe]

The outcry should also be from the kids who get to race ONCE before they are eliminated! All that work on their cars, for WHAT? One and done? That is pathetic.

[Dave Burg]

Well they do get to race at least THREE times but wouldn't four or more be better? I don't know if I'll be able to change there perspective before this Saturday which is when we run. And no Stan I'm not the event chairman I'm just the guy who does the announcing and gives them solutions to there problems. I have NO power in the organization. I work shift work and can not be to the functions and meetings of the club on a regular basis,only once a month the way my schedule works so I am not one of the leaders. I keep being approached to find solutions but I have no power to really implement anything.

[Stan Pope]

Well they do get to race at least THREE times but wouldn't four or more be better? I don't know if I'll be able to change there perspective before this Saturday which is when we run. And no Stan I'm not the event chairman I'm just the guy who does the announcing and gives them solutions to there problems. I have NO power in the organization. I work shift work and can not be to the functions and meetings of the club on a regular basis,only once a month the way my schedule works so I am not one of the leaders. I keep being approached to find solutions but I have no power to really implement anything.

I hear you!

The three successive single elim's is a variation of a triple elimination system without the formality (sometimes) of resolving the fact that the second and third place trophy winners have not "been eliminated". Most times I see such systems, the winner of the undefeated bracket races the winner of the 2nd chance bracket until one of them is eliminated. Triple elim would pit the 2nd chance bracket winner against the 3rd chance bracket winner on the same basis, and the winner there going to meet the undefeated bracket winner. Some advantages of this include more closely satisfying the "triple elimination concept" in that it averages out some of the inherent randomness, and delaying the determination of the first place winner until the last race.

A double elimination chart does take about 2/3 of the number of heats, BUT it is rather less accurate in awarding 3rd place. (My district used to award 5 place trophies based on a double elimination chart! Luck really HAD to be on the side of the 5th fastest car if he were to get any trophy! Like rolling dice! )

[Dave Burg]

After a long night to get my self calmed down a small bit I've decide I'm going to walk in to the practice night on Thursday with some ammunition on my side for having fairer races.
First I'm going to have the old single elimination bracket made up and show the number of races we will have to run.
Second I'm going to have the points type charts made up and show how we can have kids run more races and fairer to.
Third I'm going to have are new timer set up and show them we can run the points format but use times to supplement the results to keep ties from happening.
Hopefully I can get some sense made for people and AGAIN explain that this race is NOT made for the parents to understand it IS for the kids to have fun and feel like they have a chance.

[Dave Burg]

Well another derby has come and gone and AGAIN common sense could not be observed. Ihad everything ready and set to use Stan's race program to set the races up and make things even. Guess what the race set was tossed out.the points were tossed out and using the timer was tossed out. Back to three rounds of single elimination races to determine 1st,2nd and 3rd. I know the first and second place cars were correct,(They were my boy and girls I kept a eye on there times.) but I'm almost certain that third place would have been different. Races took forever but at least we got through.
The second group of cars we only had five cars so I took my chance and pushed the issue. We ran a two round varation of Stan's system of racing to make it even I had a volunteer from the younger kids to make the sixth car so the timer would work properly. I would have loved to make it a four round with only this many kids to make the averages better but it was the best I could get them to do.
The older kids racing was accepted well and I am hoping to get one of the race programs for next year so we can run both divisions with time.

[ameliabedelia]

Well another derby has come and gone and AGAIN common sense could not be observed. I had everything ready and set to use Stan's race program to set the races up and make things even. Guess what the race set was tossed out.the points were tossed out and using the timer was tossed out. Back to three rounds of single elimination races to determine 1st,2nd and 3rd.

Part of the problem is probably that the racing method your club is using is one of 2 methods given in Awana's Grand Prix Instruction Manual (I'm assuming Awana hasn't revised it since we bought one to get us started a few years ago). So the club is assuming that these 2 methods must be correct/accurate/official, so they must be used, and they must be right.

We started out using the same method as you describe (single elim to get 1st place, then race all others for 2nd, then race all others for 3rd), but we had trouble our first year...misunderstanding of how it worked...public scene in the middle of the race...they thought the 2nd round proved 2nd & 3rd place without racing the 3rd round...because of all the fuss, and because I and the person in charge at that time couldn't adequately explain (that was our first year too), we did cut the race short & declared 1st, 2nd & 3rd from the results we had up to that point.

I decided afterwards that that will not happen again, so I began looking for an alternative. Actually, one of the people who kicked up a fuss found a spreadsheet program that used a point system and some sort of scheduling chart. We used that for a year or two until my husband and I customized a program to use Young & Pope charts (thanks, Stan), and to display on the overhead the way I wanted it to. I'm tweaking it again, and hope to make it available on Commander Bill's (Awana) website sometime this year.

[Stan Pope]

I decided afterwards that that will not happen again, so I began looking for an alternative. Actually, one of the people who kicked up a fuss found a spreadsheet program that used a point system and some sort of scheduling chart. We used that for a year or two until my husband and I customized a program to use Young & Pope charts (thanks, Stan), and to display on the overhead the way I wanted it to. I'm tweaking it again, and hope to make it available on Commander Bill's (Awana) website sometime this year.

You're welcome, Amelia (right?). You and your charges are why Cory and I put so much of our hearts and souls into the project!

If you look around, you may find the charts embedded in software (like GPRM) and in some spreadsheets, including a spreadsheet that invokes the "official" schedule generation on the fly to fit your current race requirement! There are a few "hacks" around which have extracted schedules and plugged them into spreadsheets and which have ported the software into their own version (we asked 'em not to, but you know how it is.) If you use a "hack", you are on your own!

[ameliabedelia]

If you look around, you may find the charts embedded in software (like GPRM) and in some spreadsheets, including a spreadsheet that invokes the "official" schedule generation on the fly to fit your current race requirement!

Does this spreadsheet need internet access during the race?

There are a few "hacks" around which have extracted schedules and plugged them into spreadsheets and which have ported the software into their own version (we asked 'em not to, but you know how it is.) If you use a "hack", you are on your own!

Not sure what "porting the software into their own version" means, but I did generate the charts for different numbers of cars and use that in my spreadsheet. It's set up so that on Race Night when we actually find out how many clubbers show up I can enter the number of cars racing, and it will use the appropriate chart. Since we average less than 20 racers, I have charts generated from about 12-26 cars (2 rounds), plus the 7-3 final round chart, and they're saved in the spreadsheet. Macros & formulas that my husband wrote enable the spreadsheet to do it's magic and plug the right cars into the right lanes in a viewer & user-friendly screen that we project on the wall. I didn't put your chart generator into my program, if that's what you meant, just the charts I generate from it.

[ameliabedelia]

You're welcome, Amelia (right?).

You can call me Amelia if you want (my alter-ego?? ). My name's Emily.

[Stan Pope]

If you look around, you may find the charts embedded in software (like GPRM) and in some spreadsheets, including a spreadsheet that invokes the "official" schedule generation on the fly to fit your current race requirement!

Does this spreadsheet need internet access during the race?

No!!! It uses the DLL version and Excel's ability to invoke DLL's! Cory has the details!

There are a few "hacks" around which have extracted schedules and plugged them into spreadsheets and which have ported the software into their own version (we asked 'em not to, but you know how it is.) If you use a "hack", you are on your own!

Not sure what "porting the software into their own version" means, but I did generate the charts for different numbers of cars and use that in my spreadsheet. It's set up so that on Race Night when we actually find out how many clubbers show up I can enter the number of cars racing, and it will use the appropriate chart. Since we average less than 20 racers, I have charts generated from about 12-26 cars (2 rounds), plus the 7-3 final round chart, and they're saved in the spreadsheet. Macros & formulas that my husband wrote enable the spreadsheet to do it's magic and plug the right cars into the right lanes in a viewer & user-friendly screen that we project on the wall. I didn't put your chart generator into my program, if that's what you meant, just the charts I generate from it.

No, you probably used one of the output formats that the web page provides to create something that you can "cut and paste" into your spreadsheet. That is "planned usage".

A "hack" would reverse engineer the javascript code and generator tables and make their own version of the generator program in the language/platform of their choice.

Thanks, Emily. I'd never get that out of your DT Sign-on name!