I need a derby bailout

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
Post Reply
redshift
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:34 am
Location: Chruch Hill, Tn

I need a derby bailout

Post by redshift » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:19 pm

Hi,
I have just been put in charge of running our pack derby tomorrow night. I have never run a derby, but we won the district the last two years, so I guess I appear most qualified.

Any support is greatly appreciated. Things I know, We will have a two lane track(I think) that has a light over each lane to showing the winner. We should have less than 25 boys. In the past we have run double elimination.

I have read many of the post on running and scheduling. Please note... I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. :roll:

At this time I am thinking of using Partial Perfect-N...
Thanks
Ryan



User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by gpraceman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:42 pm

redshift wrote:Things I know, We will have a two lane track(I think) that has a light over each lane to showing the winner. We should have less than 25 boys. In the past we have run double elimination.

At this time I am thinking of using Partial Perfect-N...
I would recommend the Perfect-N type charts. With 25 or fewer racers, try to give them at least 3 times down each lane of the track.

Does the timer indicate the times or have a computer interface? I'm trying to determine if you can score by times or will have to use points scoring.


Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

redshift
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:34 am
Location: Chruch Hill, Tn

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by redshift » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:48 pm

I am not sure if the timer has an computer interface or not. I will have to assume the it does not.



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by Stan Pope » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:00 pm

Randy responded as though he knows you already have GPRM. He probably knows, but just in case you don't, be aware that you can run the thing "on paper" (on transparencies, actually) using an overhead projector so that folks can see what is happening.

The necessary forms can be output from the web version of PPN, http://www.stanpope.net/ppngen.html.

Email me if questions about the web version.


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by gpraceman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:09 pm

Stan Pope wrote:Randy responded as though he knows you already have GPRM.
Actually, I was making no such assumption. Just trying to get more info to formulate a further response.

Some timers only indicate the finish order but can send the times to a computer. You can use HyperTerminal or other similar program to read the incoming data and then record it with old fashioned pencil and paper, if needed.
Last edited by gpraceman on Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by gpraceman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:13 pm

redshift wrote:I am not sure if the timer has an computer interface or not. I will have to assume the it does not.
If not, then you will need to score by points. With points it will be helpful to squeeze in as much racing as you can in order to reduce the chance of ties.

Are you giving out awards for each rank? If so, then you would need to make each rank their own separate race group. If only giving out overall pack awards, you can race them all together in one race group.


Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

redshift
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:34 am
Location: Chruch Hill, Tn

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by redshift » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:28 pm

Thanks for the quick response. It looks like two rounds with twenty car give everyone four times down the track. Do you think this well be sufficient to reduce ties? In the past we have only give out pack awards, I was going to do the same.



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by Stan Pope » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:33 pm

redshift wrote:Thanks for the quick response. It looks like two rounds with twenty car give everyone four times down the track. Do you think this well be sufficient to reduce ties? In the past we have only give out pack awards, I was going to do the same.
Probably not. Each car will have raced 4 of the 20 possible opponents. Each would have a points total between 0 and 4 (5 possible different totals). Probably a lot of ties.

If it were my pack and track, I'd run 3 or 4 rounds (6 or 8 heats each) and I'd take the 7 hightest scoring racer into a 7 car finals of 3 rounds (6 heats each).


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by gpraceman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:37 pm

redshift wrote:Thanks for the quick response. It looks like two rounds with twenty car give everyone four times down the track. Do you think this well be sufficient to reduce ties? In the past we have only give out pack awards, I was going to do the same.
If you can, try to give them 3 times down each lane of the track. That will reduce the chances of ties even more.

If you only do two runs per lane, then you might want to take the top racers and run them in a second "trophy" round. You can use the rule of thumb of advancing twice as many racers as you will be awarding trophies. If you get ties in there, you can just advance the extra racer(s). You still will likely need to run each racer down at least two times down each lane, again to reduce the chance of ties.

Looks like Stan beat me to the punch...


Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

User avatar
pack529holycross
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:25 pm
Location: Dr. Phillips, Florida
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by pack529holycross » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:53 pm

gpraceman wrote:
redshift wrote:Thanks for the quick response. It looks like two rounds with twenty car give everyone four times down the track. Do you think this well be sufficient to reduce ties? In the past we have only give out pack awards, I was going to do the same.
If you can, try to give them 3 times down each lane of the track. That will reduce the chances of ties even more.

If you only do two runs per lane, then you might want to take the top racers and run them in a second "trophy" round. You can use the rule of thumb of advancing twice as many racers as you will be awarding trophies. If you get ties in there, you can just advance the extra racer(s). You still will likely need to run each racer down at least two times down each lane, again to reduce the chance of ties.

Looks like Stan beat me to the punch...
Would it be true that even if they did not connect the timer to a PC< they could still use GPRM to manage the race by manually entering results, and the system is still going to provide the benefits of roster, scheduling, standings, tie breakers, etc?



User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by gpraceman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:34 pm

pack529holycross wrote:Would it be true that even if they did not connect the timer to a PC< they could still use GPRM to manage the race by manually entering results, and the system is still going to provide the benefits of roster, scheduling, standings, tie breakers, etc?
That is true, but again, I was not assuming that he is using GPRM.


Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

redshift
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:34 am
Location: Chruch Hill, Tn

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by redshift » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:39 am

I want to thank Stan and Randy for helping get ready for our race. It went...ok. I used the Stan's advice and did three rounds to get the top seven and three more rounds for the finals. I could not have done it with out much help from the other people there. It appeared hectic to me, but I think the kids really enjoyed all the racing they got to do. I defiantly will purchase GPRM for next year... it was all my brain could do to keep up with every thing.

I still had a lot of ties after the first 3 rounds, I settled the 4 way tie for 7th with double emanation. What would have been the best way for this.... I should have ask this before the race :roll:
Thanks again
Ryan



User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6888
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: I need a derby bailout

Post by Stan Pope » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:37 pm

Sounds like you did fine, Ryan! The tie-break was cool.

The #1 measures are:
1. Did the kids have fun, even the ones that did not make the finals, and
2. Did the parents think it was fair and not overly long!

Sounds like you are okay on the first half of each. For the rest, I'll let you poll your charges.

Thanks for the report.


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

Post Reply