Geez Louise...PWD rules...I just have to vent!...*Update*

[Tesla_HV]

Weeks ago, I asked one of our coordinators for the PWD rules. They did not provide these when we got the kits before Christmas. I had to ask for this last year and got a response based on the rules the year before. Well, I found the old rules and emailed the coordinator back to disregard the request that I had found last year's rules. My specific question regarded the required use of the stock axle slots. The old rules did not require the use of the slots just stock axle distances, so this year I drilled my own holes. Now the cars are finished and yesterday I get an email from the coordinator with an attachment...you guessed it, the new rules. Bear in mind that the derby is Sunday. Guess what?, the new rules state that the stock slots must be used. Now what do I do? Write and angry letter?, boycott the event?, rush around and procure new kits and use the stock slots?, show up with the rule-breaking cars and let them hash it out? What a crock. This is supposed to be a fun event and it is my opinion that this is gross negligence on the part of the derby committee. Sorry, I had to vent.

[dknowles67]

One of my own pet peeves.
I strongly feel that the rules whatever they may be, are ones that can be enforced.
They should be distributed before, or at the same time as the kits.
And finally they should be enforced on race day.
Anything else just isn't fair.

[sporty]

I certainly can understand your frustration.


I recently ran into a problem, sone what like yours.

The rules should be given out when the cars are given out or at least two weeks before the race.

I has asked for a month and for 1/2 of a month I was told to use the rules in the box.

However, then I get a e-mail saying they will have the rules. we got the PWD car 5/6 weeks before the race.

we had already built the cars. Now going by the rules in the PWd box, gave me alot of room to do thing to the car.

The local rules killed that.

I had to quickly buy a new car and start again.


I even contacted one of the area leader's over seeing our area.

When I brought the matter up. He just down played it and i got the impression he was not about to do anything.

He just went on to self brag himself up, on how he handles so much and so forth.

Instead of offering help , I wanted him to contact the local group and remind them of the rules.

Instead he said he could mail me a new car. Im like by the time I got it, i would not have time to properly build the car.

It was a nice jesture, but he was not about to do anything about the issue.


It gets more troubling.

I get news letter for a meeting, but nothing on the news letter on what time the meeting is.

We get there early, and other people are asking the same question. stoppping in and out.

1 hour later. The leaders show up, and people ask them. They get attitude about it. Not a sorry or anything.


people get involved for alot of reasons, and its a hard thing, if you think about it.

Not getting paid, volunteering your time. So I understand and I also feel that there is some basic exspectations that have to be understood in that role.

But some volunteers are better than others. and some are in it for the wrong reasons. But they are still that volunteers.

sporty

[Teeeman]

Weeks ago, I asked one of our coordinators for the PWD rules. They did not provide these when we got the kits before Christmas. I had to ask for this last year and got a response based on the rules the year before. Well, I found the old rules and emailed the coordinator back to disregard the request that I had found last year's rules. My specific question regarded the required use of the stock axle slots. The old rules did not require the use of the slots just stock axle distances, so this year I drilled my own holes. Now the cars are finished and yesterday I get an email from the coordinator with an attachment...you guessed it, the new rules. Bear in mind that the derby is Sunday. Guess what?, the new rules state that the stock slots must be used. Now what do I do? Write and angry letter?, boycott the event?, rush around and procure new kits and use the stock slots?, show up with the rule-breaking cars and let them hash it out? What a crock. This is supposed to be a fun event and it is my opinion that this is gross negligence on the part of the derby committee. Sorry, I had to vent.

That stinks!

I would not be able to sit still...

is there any way to quickly use the axles/wheels and just splash out a new body, but only have it "on the ready" ?
Then work out whether or not you can race your existing car ASAP?
I would NOT tell the guys I'm haggling with that you have a contingency plan...

this is their fault.

Make them bear the burden.


Find some other Den or Pack members who've made the same mistake... one voice may not sway the committee, but several (with pitchforks and torches, ahahahah!) will have a much more profound influence on their willingness to amend the rules for this year and get them out ON TIME next year (hint, hint, hint).

Good luck...

-Terry

[pinecarpro]

Get this one last year they gave the rules with the kit the car gets inspected and impounded days before the race. The car was inspected and excepted. The morning of the race someone had the great Idea of using the rules that would be used at the district. Needless to say they were different and now the car they had excepted is no longer good. This was there solution he could race to be apart of the event but could not win anything:shock:

[pinecarpro]

It seems like rules are made by dads to try stop some family’s who win every year.

The rule that all 4 wheels must touch is a joke it doesn’t matter if your dad works for NASA or a bus driver anyone can do it. Plus most of all give 4 nails and wheels to 6 year old tell him to press them in the slots and see if all wheels will touch!!!! and with a 3 wheeler you can be lucky, not with 4.

This is also why there are problems at districts and councils and lot of places are doing away with them for that reason.

Next wheel location not every kid wants to win some places have awards for various looks and designs. Let them do what they want and if it is for speed just look at these boards. Just like Stan said it makes some great thinking.

How did the good builders on this site get good I bet you unless they were taught it was from getting beat first then it was watching and trying and good ideas are inspired by others. That’s what makes this fun and great for kids to learn.

That’s how I got good at it. I got beat first. There was a builder who won all the time I had ideas and they told me they wouldn’t work now they try to copy my cars. There will always be some one better so when I help kids I tell them what I know, what I think and if you really feel it in you gut try it. Because what work for me was stepping out of the box.

There is a lot of people here and I think we should try to get scouts to frown on custom rules and set there own and say these are what is going to be used at all sanctioned events.
.
I think the rules in the kit are fine maybe a rule for wheels nothing to crazy but then again never found any of those crazy designs to work on my cars and if you are clever you can make that stuff on a drill press or drill. So let them try

[dknowles67]

if your dad works for NASA

Thanks! (not offended, just kidding around)
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[michael4262]

hmmm .... got a little rant of my own and I know it isn't gonna be popular


[/rant on]
There seem to be alot of posts regarding this issue, lack of rules (or minimal), dad creates a (beyond the rules) car and is disappointed when rules are handed out (later) and car will not qualify.

It seems to me that it would be safest to approach this situation from a conservative perspective. A competitive car can be created using the basic accepted (possibly stringent) rules. These rules are the common ones, use the slots, car kit parts, don't oversand/reshape wheels, 5oz, length/width/height, 4 wheels touch, graphite only etc... Create an awsome design, align the car as best you can, lubricate and have fun.

Basically, if you are not sure, don't assume that anything goes, why not err on the side of caution? If you don't use all of the speed enhancements found out here, so what. You'll still have the opportunity to spend some good quality time with your son(s) and that makes you the real winner, not just having the car cross the finish line first.

Then, make sure that you get on the PW committee and volunteer to take charge of rule clarification and distribution for next year.
[/rant off]

[Stephen's Dad]

I'll start by saying I'm sorry & truly understand your frustration but here is a consolation story.

Stephen's first year (Tiger) we made a stretched wheelbase car after learning of the advantages right here at Derby Talk. The thing is gorgeous. Pack rules come out a month later stating "original axle slots".

We build another car & it's beautiful too.

He wins First in Pack.....WOW!!!........On to District.

He is winning District after 3 heats but looses by .009 seconds & takes 2nd place to a stretched wheelbase car. After the 4th heat I ask to see the District Rules & they clearly permit the lengthened wheelbase......Oh well!

Stephen is invited to our first ever Council Wide Derby. We re-graphite the car & head on down.

There's the District Winning stretched wheelbase car & it's proud owner ready to race.

Stephens short wheelbased car destroys the competition in 4 out of 5 heats to win Council!

The track used at Council was an antique plywood disaster. The rough surface gave a distinct advantage to my sons shorter car.

Go figure.

Today I am CubMaster & we always coordinate with the hosting District & our DE to insure that our Pack is using the same rules.

[sporty]

I think the true problem is with the rules that come with the car.

Not all people do cars year after year, may be there 1st year. people just dont know.

its the commitee's responce ability to hand out the rules when they get the car or 2 weeks before the race.

This stated right in the rules that come with the PWD car.

What we have is the local pack not doing what they should be doing.


And no one really to answer for it or do something about it.

I mean i personally ran into this and asked the commitee for 4 weeks for the rules.

They said uses the rules that come with the kit. then less than 10 days before the race. OH here our the local race rules.

Yes, sure some mods perhaps should not have been done. However a clear proccedure from the very beginning will prevent this.

My son would have been legal with the rules that come with the kit.

I not only asked the commitee, but the commitee told me to use those rules for 1 month. then they gave another set out.

It is a problem, however not all problems are the same and some are avoidable. others are not.

I ran into a parent, who they had worked on the stock axles.

Well race day comes and the inspect and say the they were not stock axles and car could not be used.

they had polished and sanded the outside of the axle. So they didnt think it was the OEM one.

Not to fun to take it all off 1 hour before the race to show them that they are indeed the axles that came with the kit.

Sporty

[Cory]

hmmm .... got a little rant of my own and I know it isn't gonna be popular

It's popular w/ me.

Contrary to what I often "seem to hear" on this board...

1. Necessary and sufficient conditions to begin work on your car are:

a. Car kit
b. Rules

Neither is sufficient by itself. If you don't have rules, I think you should be spending your time acquiring them, not working on your car.

2. Assuming that you have both of the above, the best place to get a rules clarification is from your organizers, not from this board.

---------------------

In Sporty's case, where one set of rules was replaced by another set of rules, this is unacceptable in my book, especially if Sporty had it in writing to use the rules in the box. It doesn't say anywhere that your organizers have to be good at their jobs (after all, they are just volunteers) but they do need to be held accountable for their actions, and once they're handed out in writing, the rules can't change.

---------------------

Erring on the side of caution is better than erring on the other side. But as a former organizer, I would rather that someone not err at all.

Organizers don't want controversy. If you go to them, they can tell you exactly where the "line is drawn", and further, they can disseminate the information to rest of the group.

Yet many people still don't ask questions of the organizers, or they bring the questions here, or elsewhere. Why?

[sporty]

I know I brought it up here, when my talks with the commitee went un answered.

trying to find out, just how big of a problem this may be for others. To get some feed back on precdures and policys.

as alot of them resort back to the area council.

It is the area council who tpyically puts on the main race.


I think in my situation, when you go buy what you are told buy the commitee and the commitee later does an about face.

Becomes a real problem.

I asked before we built the cars, I asked for 3 weeks before we built the cars.

then on the 5 week, just after the cars were done, I get a different set of rules.

So in my situation is was a failure of the commitee.

Not on my part.

However other situations where others may have not asked 1st or tried to get the rules first.

I know the amount of time i put into contacting people. And I still ended up having to make another car.

The problem is in my situation, the commitee failed to do there job. and me and my sons time and effort paid the price.

I would have felt happy with , Im sorry, we messed up on what we told you.

Instead, I got a huff and a puff from them.

I thought about bringing the written document from them that states, the rules are whats inside the box and to go buy them and show up with the car and when they say is illegal. I hand out the paper.

I would like to see the commitee deal with that infront of all the parents that day.

But that would not be nice, and I wont, But thats what I feel should happen.

Again, my case is my case and others vary.


I'll go and enjoy the event, not say a word or comment. have a wonderfull time. But in the back of my mind.

They should step down. Id be happy to take over there spot to make sure this dont happen again.

But I can tell buy there personality that they are not going to step down. And I can judge buy how they conduct and handle there meetings.

That it would be better to move and get involved elsewhere.

However, thats not a realistic option on such a issue.

I have held back my thoughts on the matter, because I want to grant them great apreciation as they are a volunteers.

And they have been volunteering for a long time. But not all volunteers make a good leader or should be on a commitee.

But no one else stepped up to the plate. And it is what it is.

I offered alot of things in recent weeks to them, because i thought time to dive in help and make sure things get run fair and that dates and time are known to everyone and so forth.

My offer has yet to be used. Not only that, when i was jsut asking guestion they seem to not want to answer them and its just not me who has ran into this.

3 people aproached this person about the time at which the meeting was to be held.

They got a look, you know, one of those kinds of looks. and the answer was well you are here now and its about to start.

He was like, I have been here for 1 and 1/2 hours.

All these people helped set up the flags, the chairs. no one asked, just were nice enough to do it.

not a thank you to a single one of them.


Sorry to be weanier, but man i cna understand when ya need to vent.

Sporty

[Cory]

I know I brought it up here, when my talks with the commitee went un answered....
<snip>

Sporty, it sounds like your problem is a lot bigger than just a rules snafu.

I doubt that I would have been as patient as you've been.

[Wickerness]

I saw this happen at our Derby too.
A mom found out that they had to use the original slots and about came unglued. Luckily it was a couple of days before the race. They were doing it based on the look of the car and not the speed though. It didn't mess up the look too much. I wish I remembered how well the car did in the end though. Too busy with my son and family to notice the final results for that particular car.

The scoutmaster did say that next year he's going to have all the rules spelled out ahead of time. He was mainly thinking on the lines if this boy's car went to district. If it had just been with the pack then he probably wouldn't have had a problem with it. He just didn't want the boy to get disqualified at district. I would also like to find out the district rules myself.

We're a small pack so they're probably isn't as much politics as some of the bigger packs. We only had about 24 boys entered into the derby. Unfortunately we had some that weren't entered at all.

I knew about changing the slots and that some areas the rules didn't allow it. I mainly didn't change it because I wasn't brave enough to make my own slots. Even if it had been legal.

[Tesla_HV]

Update:

I didn't get medieval on their butts. I waited a few hours and drafted up a polite letter (email) outlining my grievance and sent it to the committee. On Saturday (the day before the race) I got a call saying that the committee was unaware that the rules that they had sent out on Friday were different than the year before and that my sons' cars would be able to compete. There is something to be said about cooler heads prevailing. The only caveat is that, were my sons to place in the top three, that the district may choose to enforce the rules at the district-level races.

Fast-forward to yesterday and the race. My older son (a Bear) placed fifth in his category. This left my youngest son (a Tiger) to compete. The competition is double elimination and in both of the heats his car placed first..way in first. This left the championship round where the top six cars competed for the best averaged time. In this round my son's car ended up in a tie (exact to three decimal places) with another Tiger's car. They did an final elimination with two races with the two top cars. The first race was won by my son but a setup error negated this race. The second race (the first that counted) was also won by my son and in the third race he lost by 0.01 seconds. In the final races there was no names only "Car 1 and Car 2. I figured we had it in the bag but in the awards ceremony they announced that he had come in second. What a bummer. The only way he could have done this is for him to have lost both races. I didn't protest but my son was heartbroken. I tried in the following hours to teach him about sportsmanship. Oh well, second is good too. Now it is off to the district races where we will learn if my son's car will be legal to compete.

Thanks for all of the advice and pointers on this great site!