Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

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Teeeman
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Teeeman »

Few personal points:

1. kids can't do this without some help
2. there is no set standard of "how much is too much"
3. so long as the kid is working and learning, mission accomplished!
4. there is no standard that can be measured nor enforced on "how much is too much"
5. there are dozens of ways to mitigate dad's doing too much (i.e. workshops, daddy races)
6. buying finished speed parts or complete cars defeats the whole point of PWD... see number 3 above

I have struggled morally with how much is too much myself... my revelation on this topic perhaps has happened this year... in opening up my garage to others and trying in every way I know how to teach speed tricks to dads and kids... I have noticed a pattern... when you actually watch the dad/kid teams work, it is dear old dad doing a LOT... a lot more than I ever imagined, anyway... seems there is a strong pattern of dads doind WAY more than I ever imagined, so my guilt is totally relieved on this one :)

And we all say the same thing: "Maybe I'm helping too much"...

The point is Number 3 above. It's for the boys!!!

(if they aren't benefitting in "real" way other than getting handed a trophy and an ego boost for the car that dad provided by either building or buying... THAT is probably going too far?)




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Stan Pope
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Stan Pope »

2kids10horses wrote:Stan,

Our 88 kids last year was the most we've ever had! We're in rural NE Ga. ...
Sorry if it seemed that I was "knocking the participation"... it just seemed a low number. You may well be in a much smaller than average size (Cub Scout population) district. If your district's Cub Scout population is below 350, then you are doing great as is and you should enjoy the successes! But keep your eyes open for decline to prior levels.

I think that the primary goal of a district or council PWD is to cause pack PWD's with strong participation levels!

The survey showed that the "restrictive but not too restrictive" pack representation criteria is strongly correlated to good participation across the district's packs and to strong participation in the district derby. This suggests to me that districts that deviate from the "restrictive but not too restrictive" participation criteria should evaluate their program basis to see if it is having the desired result and to analyze opportunities to improve if it not.

I suppose that a pack could decide to not hold a pack race and "select" the first folks who ask for a spot on the "qualified" list. Some packs would probably not be affected, choosing to just keep doing what they are doing. Others would find that demand for spots on the list would show a need to actuallly run a pack derby. Then we have done them a service. But even if those packs see a lack of demand, running a pack PWD to select representatives would probably increase the interest in participating in both!
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by ExtremePWD »

Go Bubba Go wrote: I also would like to see more of our boys (i.e. different ones, not the same ones every year) have a chance to share this experience. Given the current selection criteria we use (top 2 boys only from each grade go directly on to Council (no District races)), the question becomes how to allow both my boys (in same age group) to truly "Do Their Best", but not end up with them being the only 2 that ever go from their age group.
...
Our district selection criteria is the top 4 advance. Over several years, me and another dad have taught many of the finer points to our pack. The "tribal" knowledge is currently pretty high. Last year our district reps won 3 of the 5 age groups and one of the age groups we had 3 of the top 5! We had other Scouts finishing in the top 10 or so. Usually we have to turn down boys wanting to compete at district because of the 4 scout (per age group) limit. I would suggest to district organizers to give an automatic qualifier to any Scout who finished in the top 5 the previous year so that the pack allotments could be used to also bring in the next layer of scouts. I believe this would still preserve the intent to maintain a minimum performance level to qualify. My boys have typically performed well in the pack and district but usually there are other cars of similar performance levels. We have not had to take any "heat" that I have heard because I believe people recognize the knowledge we freely share and the amount of time volunteered to organize and run our pack race.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by M7 Racing »

This topic has really hit home this year. We have three boys in scouts and with a couple not yet in scouts we have many years of pinewood building ahead of us. My oldest is a Webelo and he has gone from his car not finishing when he was a Tiger to being the district champion this year. My boys have simple designs to build but very fast cars. The advantage they have is that they work on them together which does mean that my current Tiger gets a lot of the experience that my Webelo has gone through. They have gotten very good at building and do not even need dad for some of the parts (they spent a weekend in the garage just working on their axels and wheels without any help from me this year). In our pack they took 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall and got much praise from everyone. They have been very open to sharing their ideas and we have participated in workshops. Bottom line, in our pack there are a lot of people gunning for us but in a positive way. They know the integrity of our family and of my boys so instead of being cheaters they are looked at as hard and smart workers.

Now with districts it was an entirely different story and I am not sure what to do about it. The environment was so hostile (yes HOSTILE) that I can't imagine exposing my children to it again. The same cars and rules were used and I even emailed the head of the district derby to ensure that there were no misinterpretations in the rules. Our pack and district rules require that the original slots be used and that the slots have to be 4 3/8" apart. To everyone's interpretation it is legal to cut a small amount off the back and glue it onto the front as long as the above rule is followed. Well our three cars at districts were the only three cars that did this and although they easily passed inspection they were kept right at the inspection area for everyone to touch and observe. There were some questions regarding why the three cars looked different and some protests because they thought the cars were illegal. Instead of the leaders controlling the situation they said things like, "your right it gives them an unfair advantage", "kids only have the patience to sand 3 minutes at a time so there is no way the boy could of cut the back of the car and glued it on the front". I tried to step in but no one would listen because we had an "unfair advantage" that no one even understood. Actually one of the leaders said it was he thought it was ok to take off the back but if you add it on the front it is the same as putting a big notch in the front because it gives you a head start. Obviously it was so off base that my Webelo stepped in and told them that no it was to try and maximize the potential energy. He was ignored and the discussion got more and more heated. I removed my son from the area and just let the leaders do whatever they wanted to do. Things stayed quiet for while my first two sons won their ranks but when my Webelo's car got up it got really bad. There was even yelling from parents in the crowd. At this point they had all our cars and all we could do is keep my children close to me. My Webelo won his races even after they dropped is car and bent a back axel ~30 degrees. HE fixed it and took the track record. Obviously this race was an extremely poor example of what scouting is about and I know that these other parents do not know our family or our integrity, however I would assume that the leaders would step in and make sure that the races are a fair, controlled and safe environment for our children. My boys love building cars but they are almost afraid of winning again and although we are definitely not overprotective portents it is ashame that we have believe that it is not safe for our children to participate in districts anymore.

Sorry for the long post, but my question is where do I go from here? I can convince my boys to not go to districts in the future but I guess is that the right thing? I have also considered starting an open class in our pack so the boys can experiment even more with their cars, make them really fast but then have a reason why the can't go to districts because they are no legal. It would also give the perception to some of our pack racers that they might have a better chance since my boys seemed unbeatable this year. I have also thought about a letter to the district or council leaders however it seems pointless since the leaders were actually on the side of the unruly parents.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Gameday »

M7, wow, what a story. I read it earlier today and have been pondering it since then. Here are my $.02:

First, I would definitely have my kids compete in both the Pack and District races again next year. I'd have them work just as hard and try and be just as dominant. To do anything less would be teaching them the wrong way to react to the type of abuse they experienced.

Second, even though you feel it's pointless to discuss this further with the leaders since they sided with the parents, I would still make an effort to do that. I would write a very factual, non-emotional summary of the events and go over it with them. I would be prepared to discuss why their behavior and actions were not fair or consistent with the rules as stated. I would stress the impact this had on your boys (the impact of the leaders actions, the impact of the parents actions, and the result of the entire experience).

And lastly, next year I would proactively get a clarification on cutting off the backend and glueing it to the front end via email from the PWD committees and I would take it with you to both events.

Good luck. I'd love to hear how this turns out. Any pics of the cars?
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Gameday wrote:...I would proactively get a clarification on cutting off the backend and glueing it to the front end via email from the PWD committees and I would take it with you to both events.
I did that this year, just in case. I also volunteered for the District PWD committee to hopefully clarify our Districts rules.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by 2kids10horses »

M7,

I'm sorry you had to go thru that. I guess it's because you had three sons and each dominated. If you only had one son in the race, no one would have really noticed.

I bet you'll see a lot of cars with no tails next year!

Our Council also allows that technique, and I specificly asked if it were legal before I built our car last year. We also won District, and were 5th at Council. The Council winner was also built that way. We were the only two, so the technique is not well known. (My avatar, the white car with the red zigzag, is built that way. It's last year's car.)

I fear we may have the same type of controvercy over "lightened wheels" at District this year. Again, I've asked, and in our Council, they're legal.

Alas, the Derby is supposed to be a fun event.

As for next year: I'd compete again. Be ABSOLUTELY sure you're legal in every respect, get written rules interpretations from whoever you need to if you're pushing any rule.

My son won District last year as a WEBLO I. This is his last year, and he's got a competive car. It will be interesting to see what happens if he wins this year.

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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Thought about it a while, here's my 2 cents:

First - your immediate focus should be on your boys and what they learn or don't learn from things like this.

What NOT to learn:

When people act poorly like this you should just take your ball and go home. Instead, ask yourself how you would want your boys to act in the face of opposition when they are grown men (it's coming faster than we think, and they will face opposition when they're older) and show them the way. There may be valid reasons to skip Districts in the future (give other boys from your pack the opportunity, etc...), but the poor behavior of others is not one IMO.

A callous disregard for the other participants. While many of them acted poorly, there may have been a few that genuinely thought (wrongly, but thought it nonetheless) they had been cheated.

That situations like this are just "hopeless" and that there is nothing that can be done to change them.

What TO learn:

That it is important to Do Your Best and not let others browbeat you into mediocrity. Excellence IS a virtue. Often not recognized as such, but it IS.

The importance of integrity. You did the right thing in checking ahead on the rules and playing accordingly. Having Done Your Best in that regard, you can sleep well at night knowing that you have done right regardless of the response. Had you "fudged" in any way, that would not be the case.

How to handle criticism and not return hostility with hostility. Sounds like they did well, but it's a lesson that needs regular reinforcement. It can be sooooo tempting to act badly in return.

To stop and consider if you did do anything that contributed to the situation. While the "fire" was completely out of line, did you (intentionally or unintentionally) throw any kindling on it? Not saying it's the case, but it is always good to debrief a situation like this and consider whether your actions did exacerbate it in any way. As you said, your local Pack folks know you and your character well, but the District people don't. There may be something you do (attitude, mannerisms, ???) that the Pack folks overlook against the backdrop of your overall character. The District folks don't have that backdrop.

To at least TRY to improve a situation like this. This was a poor experience for all involved, the other participants as well as your boys. There may be things you can do to improve it in the future.

Beyond lessons for the boys - what to do next IMO:

Given that (from what you said above) you have a few more boys "in the pipeline" and you will be around for awhile, I would take on the challenge of trying to improve the situation for future years.

I would start by writing a letter to the District PWD Chairman about the situation. Indicate in general terms (a blow-by-blow would be unproductive) that you thought the outcome was not what it should be, and that the spirit of the event got lost in the controversy. If you believe you contributed to the controversy in any way, indicate so (again, not a blow-by-blow but more of a "I don't think we helped resolve it"). Honest self-criticism is very disarming. Remind the man in your letter about the purpose of Scouting and/or PWD, and indicate your willingness to help make the event better.

Be prepared to make the best of the situation that you can going forward. You could be on the front end of a nice turn-around. You could also get nowhere (there are some people who learned their social skills in High School, and you may just not be part of their little clique). However, even some of those situations can be turned around by people who are sincerly after the "right" things for the "right" reasons.

I would Do Your Best to try to effect some positive change, both for your boys and the others who are not being provided with the experience that Scouting should be.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by psycaz »

M7,
Do you still have the email where you got the clarification on the rule?
If so, I would start by contacting that person. You have an ally in them even if they don’t know it yet.

Explain what happened to them and ask for help as to how to handle it for the future. Maybe they can arrange a meeting between you and those involved to try to work through what happened as it isn’t what the whole event is supposed to be about. No child should be afraid to be at a scouting event.

The folks involved should be vastly more receptive to speaking to you as
A: you were doing what you were told was legal and
B: there is no crowd involved and cooler heads should easily prevail.

If you frame it as you just want to make sure it doesn’t happen again and would like to try to be part f the answer and not the problem, most times that will open a ton of doors and minds.

If not or they won’t help, do any of the leaders in your group know anyone involved form the district side.
An intermediary sometimes can help since it gives you credence since they can attest to the type of person you truly are.

Lastly, if all that fails, try contacting someone directly from the group concerned and ask if they have some time to discuss what happened with you. Again frame it as your not wanting it to happen again and would like to understand their interpretation of the rule(s) in question.

If all that fails, then just bide your time until next year and start over with the request for rules clarification and take it with you and maybe someone with a camcorder to record if things get out of hand at districts again. With a tape to confirm if it happens again, go to the council and ask for help. Just document that you at least tried to solve it this year.

Above all else, don’t let them bully you and your into not attending anymore, all that does it promote more of that type of behavior.

Sorry for the long post.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by HangMan »

Let them talk...those that talk are only jealous. Keep on spending the quality time with your son. Advise him on everything that YOU are doing to the car and why. After all, it will make him feel better to know he spent alot of time and the results were a competitive car.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by RacerRusty »

I have read this thread and I readily admit that several times it has made My blood boil.

In My transition from infant to adult My Father taught Me many lessons that have served Me well in My life. The one that has served Me the most is self confidence. "DON'T let other people intimidate you. Do what you know to be the right thing. If other people have a problem with it, well it's their problem."

That being said, I would go to any and all races, if We win We win. Some one doesn't like it, well then they have a problem.

Just remember, these people making these accusations are pure and simply bearing false witness and they will have to answer for it someday.
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by Go Bubba Go »

RacerRusty wrote:...In My transition from infant to adult My Father taught Me many lessons that have served Me well in My life.
Unfortunately, you occasionally run across folks who seem never to have completed the transition, instead getting stuck somewhere between spoiled child and rebellious teenager. :(

Boy, I am starting to sound more and more like my Dad :wink:
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Re: Taking heat for last yrs win.....What to do?

Post by PWD »

We have run into this for years. The biggest help has been running a workshop. Inviting others to our PWD workshop and showing them how to make a car fast. Letting the fathers, with their sons, use the tools.

I will tell you that after we have open up our workshop we have heard some say we are "cheating" because we have so many tools. One year we helped a neighbor who ultimately took second and the boy was told he "cheated" because we helped him. It was kids who said this but I think they hear it from adults and just repeat.

All sour grapes and rather silly. But it is what it is.
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