Got thumped

Secrets, tips, tools, design considerations, materials, the "science" behind it all, and other topics related to building the cars and semi-trucks.
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by Go Bubba Go »

As far as my thoughts, I see nothing wrong with it if it is within the rules provided (which it is for our particular Council so long as no part of the car protudes past the starting peg).

I do dislike the term "Cheater" Bar in that it connotes cheating even when it is an approved design. I believe this design is even featured (I have not confirmed this personally) in the BSA sanctioned book by David Meade that came out this year, although I haven't picked up a copy yet to see if he used that term in the book. I base my belief on the picture of the cover and the fact that his previous material (which I have read) did advocate that design for the "Ultimate" car. Don't have the time to look it up now to see if he used the term in his previous materials, but I think he did.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by sporty »

Council rules, Black Hawk area Council.

States=

Section 12-

Starting Devices: The car may not incorporate any device which may assist starting.

Section 13.

FRONT EDGE-

The front edge of the car must rest against the starting peg on the track So that the entire car is behind the peg.


I would read this rule and see that it says -

The front edge of the car MUST rest against the starting peg on the track !


Sincerely,

Sporty
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by Go Bubba Go »

sporty wrote:Council rules, Black Hawk area Council.

States=

Section 12-

Starting Devices: The car may not incorporate any device which may assist starting.

Section 13.

FRONT EDGE-

The front edge of the car must rest against the starting peg on the track So that the entire car is behind the peg.


I would read this rule and see that it says -

The front edge of the car MUST rest against the starting peg on the track !


Sincerely,

Sporty
If I understand you correctly (let me know if I am not) you are arguing that the bar is not really part of the car, therefore having the edge of the bar resting against the starting peg is not the same as (and will likely preclude) having the edge of the car resting against the starting peg.

I can understand the argument, although I don't really agree. One can accomplish the same purpose as a "cheater bar" with a barge nose or other construction from a standard BSA block such that the non-bar is unquestionably part of the car, while very closely approximating the build and effects of a "bar". I think it would be difficult to prohibit "cheater bars" without opening a can of worms about when the line between "car part" (e.g. wood spoiler) and "illegal bar" is crossed.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by sporty »

I feel, that rule 12 was violated.

As the front wire/plastic bar aided in assisting the car at the starting gate.

I feel also that rule 13 was violated, as I do not consider the wire and plastic to be the front edge of the car.

The front edge of the car was removed.

A device was place to aid and assist in the starting of the car at the pin / gate.

That device prevented the front edge of the car touching the pin / gate. As the front had been removed.


Also, we could even look at rule 10.

Suspension.

Since that was two thin pieces of wire, that flex and move. we could even perhaps say that it flexed and acted like a spring at the starting gate.

But that i feel is pushing the issue. So I wont go there.

But I do feel rule 12 and 13 were fairly easily violated.

Sorry you don't completely agree. I just feel the rules are pretty clear.


You might be in disagreement, as you may feel the two wires and plastic, were a part of the car.

I could agree, that because they were mounted they were part of the car. But they also interfered and aided in asisting the car, at the starting gate/ peg. which as of rule 12 is a violation.

The front of the car didnt really rest against the peg, only if you view the parts added. That were created making them able to rest against the peg. As the front nose was removed.


Sporty
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Got thumped

Post by Darin McGrew »

sporty wrote:I feel, that rule 12 was violated.

As the front wire/plastic bar aided in assisting the car at the starting gate.
Do you consider the bar to be a "device"? It doesn't seem like a device to me. And the bar doesn't "assist starting" any more than designing a car with a barge nose does. (And with a properly opening start gate, neither should "assist starting" at all.)
sporty wrote:I feel also that rule 13 was violated, as I do not consider the wire and plastic to be the front edge of the car.
Why not? What constitutes "the car"? Is the paint part of the car? What about the weights? The adhesives? The plastic windshield cut from a soda bottle?
sporty wrote:The front edge of the car was removed.
Part of the block may have been removed, but that's almost always the case. The front edge of the car is what rests against the starting pin when the finished car is staged in the start gate.
Lucky13
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:02 pm
Location: Somerset,Kentucky

Re: Got thumped

Post by Lucky13 »

Go Bubba Go wrote:As far as my thoughts, I see nothing wrong with it if it is within the rules provided (which it is for our particular Council so long as no part of the car protudes past the starting peg).

I do dislike the term "Cheater" Bar in that it connotes cheating even when it is an approved design. I believe this design is even featured (I have not confirmed this personally) in the BSA sanctioned book by David Meade that came out this year, although I haven't picked up a copy yet to see if he used that term in the book. I base my belief on the picture of the cover and the fact that his previous material (which I have read) did advocate that design for the "Ultimate" car. Don't have the time to look it up now to see if he used the term in his previous materials, but I think he did.
Go Bubba Go, you have a copy of the book by David Meade on it's way to your house, it's even signed by him. Your son won it as a door prize at the WIRL North Coast Open. It's in the box with your cars at PWDRACING right now !! In the book the bar is called a "bar", not a "cheater bar".
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by sporty »

What would cause you to think it was a aproved design ?

What would cause you to think it did not violate the rules ?


The BlackHawk Area Council rules.


The day of inspection and check in. It is required for a copy of the rules to be there out in the open.

If the rules were there, I did not see them posted or out in the open at the table.

The race Director, Had admited issues and problems with cars not being scored right, Cars getting by inspection that were not legal.

They were short staffed and some of the volunteers did not know the rules and regs and what to look for. This is something he mentioned to me when we spoke on the phone.


But I am more curious how, anyone would feel that this would be allowed and not understood as not allowed as per the Blackhawk area council rules after they were read ?

Sincerely,

Sporty


The rule debate has begun ! Let the opinions come forth.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Got thumped

Post by Stan Pope »

sporty wrote:What would cause you to think it was a aproved design ?

But I am more curious how, anyone would feel that this would be allowed and not understood as not allowed as per the Blackhawk area council rules after they were read ?
By being attached securely and firmly, the bar becomes a part of the car body!

To understand why the bar is not intended to be in violation of rule 12, examine the reasons behind rule 12. It exists to prevent designs in which the starting gate propels, i.e. imparts its energy to, the car.

Some rules limit the height of the nose (bar) so that on manual start gates, the design is not a "killer feature."

Rule 13 is largely an unnecessary rule the way most track sensors are designed. In those cases it exists to prevent a car from having a part of itself extend beyond the starting pin. On a Piantedosi style track (and, I think on a straight ramp/circular transition track) this is a losing design feature, but it gives the appearance of a "head start" and causes some consternation among the other parents. So, it is precluded.

Your interpretation MAY be the "official interpretation for your council", but it is not in line with the vast majority of interpretations elsewhere.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by sporty »

Stan,

I enjoyed reading your reply. It came across very well and provided a good forethought into this.

I know our local pack would not allow such a car. that pack is also one of the main helpers of the Blackhawk area Council race.

The local packs rules are the same as Councils also.

So I like how you said that it may be the official interpretation of your council, but is not in line with the vast majority of interpretations elsewhere.

Sporty
User avatar
BigDozer66
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:26 pm
Location: Lufkin, Texas USA

Re: Got thumped

Post by BigDozer66 »

Go Bubba Go wrote:As far as my thoughts, I see nothing wrong with it if it is within the rules provided (which it is for our particular Council so long as no part of the car protudes past the starting peg).

I do dislike the term "Cheater" Bar in that it connotes cheating even when it is an approved design. I believe this design is even featured (I have not confirmed this personally) in the BSA sanctioned book by David Meade that came out this year, although I haven't picked up a copy yet to see if he used that term in the book. I base my belief on the picture of the cover and the fact that his previous material (which I have read) did advocate that design for the "Ultimate" car. Don't have the time to look it up now to see if he used the term in his previous materials, but I think he did.
GBG,
The "Quick Start Bar" is in David's book that came out this year and it is his previous materials.
I feel as you do that the bar is part of the car and not a 'cheater bar'.

I don't see how it could be much of an advantage on a spring loaded release mechanism although I could be wrong? :?:

I would be interested in doing some research on it if I had the time and one day I might. :)

BigDozer66
"one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Cubmaster and AWANA Game Director
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by Go Bubba Go »

BigDozer66 wrote:GBG,
The "Quick Start Bar" is in David's book that came out this year and it is his previous materials.
I feel as you do that the bar is part of the car and not a 'cheater bar'.

I don't see how it could be much of an advantage on a spring loaded release mechanism although I could be wrong? :?:

I would be interested in doing some research on it if I had the time and one day I might. :)

BigDozer66
I agree with you that it doesn't give much (if any) advantage on a spring loaded release mechanism where the bars drop away faster than the cars begin to move. However, as an FYI our finals this year were run on an older wooden track using a hand powered starting bar. In that case, the extent to which an advantage is given depends on how slowly the starter opens the gate. The starters didn't appear to be intentionally slow, but... in some cases (intentionally or not), it can be done kind of slow and the advantage goes to the "quick start bar" or "barge nose" or similarly designed car.

There is a pic in the Rail Riding Rail Cars post that illustrates the effect.

p.s. Our Council thus far has allowed the Cheater/Quick Start bar, so long as the car (including the bar) follows rule 13.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
User avatar
BigDozer66
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:26 pm
Location: Lufkin, Texas USA

Re: Got thumped

Post by BigDozer66 »

Bubba,
With a 'slow' opening gate such as the one pictured in your link I believe the quick start bar would have an advantage. :)

The amount of advantage would be variable as in how fast or slow the gate dropped.

Lynn
"one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Cubmaster and AWANA Game Director
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by Go Bubba Go »

BigDozer66 wrote:Bubba,
With a 'slow' opening gate such as the one pictured in your link I believe the quick start bar would have an advantage. :)

The amount of advantage would be variable as in how fast or slow the gate dropped.

Lynn
Exactly.

We did have a couple of fairly new aluminum tracks with spring loaded gates at our disposal, but some logistical issues prevented their use for the finals. I would like to see us use a track with spring loaded gates and fewer "bumps" in future finals. Just trying to improve the setup a little bit more year after year.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by sporty »

I provided the pic to two local packs.

One pack said they would allow it, the other said that they would not allow it.

So, I think it's something that brings forth a good topic of discussion.

As, since both packs go to the same district finals. If District allows it.

I imagine then what would you do to convey that to the local pack that would not allow it ? For them to allow it ?

I dont know if I would want to be the one to try and convince them on the issue of allowing it or dis allowing it.

Perhaps they will update the Rockford rules, to make that area more clearer. As for me, its not so clear after reading them again and again.

Because they do give some examples on what is allowed, Perhaps adding that one would help alot.

I give a big thank you to all that have conveyed what they felt on this issue.

As at first, I was sold against it. But everyone gave some great responses and I am now devided on the matter.

Sincerely,

Sporty
User avatar
Go Bubba Go
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:09 pm
Location: Northern, Illinois

Re: Got thumped

Post by Go Bubba Go »

sporty wrote:As at first, I was sold against it. But everyone gave some great responses and I am now divided on the matter...
I'm sorry but I have to chuckle at your response as it is similar to mine on other matters.

Often as I follow posts on this board a particular direction or position becomes clear and helps me to solidify my own thinking (sometimes in the opposite direction, but at least I am more settled on my own position).

But at other times, the more I think and hear about something the more divided I become. :oops:

Just be careful. I would have to go back and look, but I think the question of the bars may have been one of the questions I took to the Council Committee for clarification last fall, and the next thing you know I was on the Committee and ended up as a Track Manager at the races this year. :shock: With another boy in the "wings", we could see "Sporty the Track Manager" before it's all over with. :wink:
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Post Reply