Bore prep

[sporty]

I have ordered some oil hardened drill rod.

I ordered two sizes, that way I have some leeway, incase of my size thickness of the micromesh or sandpaper is off some.

from fastenal.

like $2.34 each, .078 (5/64) / .093 (3/32)

I got a couple of each, we have a local store, so no shipping sharges. then I will cut to 4 or 6 inch lengths, comes in 3 feet lengths.

As I mentioned before the micromesh can be ordered by calling them to get the adheasive backed micromesh. The other from precision tooling is not. So I will play with 3m supper 77 spray, different glues or even double sided thin sticky tape to adhear to the drill rod.

Again, anything less than 5 micron, speed is a issue, nothing faster than 600 rpm a minute. I would like to be at 300 rpm for 1 or 2 seconds for the process. You wreck or damage the sand paper when its this fine very quickly.

Some more additional replies to some comments, this works great for supoer axle polish also, keep in mind not to touch the axle when done, your oil or grime from your fingers will contaminate the axles.

Denatured or 90% alcohol works well to clean them, before using them.

Now I seen where someone mentioned too fine, actual becomes a issue with the graphite, since its not that fine. To a degree I understand that comment and point. However if you have every looked at a before and after many runs. there is damage to the wheel bore, yes could be from the graphite.

But that also re affirms my view, you are reducing the damage of the wheel bore during those runs and it will take longer for that damage that occours, before it starts to effect performance of the car.

Different people use different lubes and have different application processes of how they apply the lube. Some are firm believers of crunch and some like powder, ultra fine lube.

In the end though before this possible damage can happen, you are going to have a ultra fine, evenly smooth finish on both the axles and the wheel bore.

Now further mention:

most polishes do not go lower than 3 micron. Then you have the issue of trying to remove the residue from the wheel bore, let me assure you that this is not as easy as running it in warm water !

I have tried this process for several years and still have not ever been happy with trying to remove all the residue.


Now lets talk about ratings and charts:

I have found that for some reason many have charts that very in what they rate for there micron charts, when they talk about there product.

Example: one reseller of 12,000 grit micron micromesh sandpaper. I have found them rate it at 5 micron, some rate it at 2 micron, even one rated it to be 1 micron ! Who is right and who is wrong ?

Then there are different grades of the same sand paper, mx,AO,regular, ect. this also sometimes plays a factor in the rating as they are for different materials. plastic / metals / wood.

Those surfaces are all different and require a different or slightly different sandpaper to get the rated claimed finish of that grade of sandpaper.

These micron and micro mesh sand papers, really do no good at all to add water while using them. They are so fine, that the water molecules are actually going to create a barrier in the water greater than the fineness of the sandpaper.

You see this typically used on lower grade or not as fine sandpaper, example, 400,600,800,1000,2000 grit sand paper, the paper is typically black ! i even have some 3000 wet sand grit sand paper.

Micron sand paper finer than 3 micron, is finer than most polishes ! perhaps not all, but many out there. The ones I looked at at best were 5 micron to 2 micron. that if you got a good even batch and applied right. then they also can get hot easy and actually cause issues.

But the bigger issue is acutally getting the residue off ! I have sent alot of time trying to get that residue off in the past ! it leaves a haze and very thin fimly residue on the wheel bore.

I have also compared this process to my current new process and even by the human eye and holding at a angle in the light. the new process is by far better. shinner and smoother.

While yes, for those that wonder, I still burnish and prep after this with graphite to the wheel bore. Does it perhaps cause me to go backwards some in regards to the overall finish of the sub micron wheel bore prep. I am not so sure that it does, but I have test ran at various prep stages and still have found what i have mentioned above and in previous posts for this topic to be better and work better !

This process does take more time and I have seen the results to warrant that extra time spent doing it !


Is there anything wrong with the extra fluffy pipe cleaner process and meguirs plastix or micropolishes ! not really they worked well for a few years,, until I tried this idea out and i got better results. The issue of the haze and trying to remove it all was just one of those results that always left me feeling there was a better process and a better result to be had.

If you use it, I can assure you it will be good for you, will you like it ! thats up to you. I'm not a vendor selling you goods ! i'm not pushing this onto you ! it was my hard work and trial and error that came to feel this is far better than what is out there ! Could I be wrong, sure !

But are they sharing it and answering questions out in the open about it ! Thats unkown at this time.

Are we fast ! you betcha ya ! Are we the fastest out there, No way ! Are we in the hunt with some of those super fast racers, You betcha !

It comes down to what level you are at, what level you want to be at !

It's a process ! is this bore prep process gonna take you to the winners circle ! not by itself. Nothing does that ! does it help ! yes it does !

It takes weight ratio, great alignment ! a real solid understanding of what works and what does not work for you ! If you are just starting off and are not very fast, that anything you do over what you do and improve upon that. Well thats going to hopefully make you faster and move you forward into the right direction of a better and faster car.

If you already have a good understanding and do well and are looking for a better process and some more speed, then this is something you might want to look at it !

We have won council the past few years and we want to go faster and we are faster this year. Are goal is to get faster each year ! this will be our 8/9th year. Just because we are fast and have won and did well. Never means everything we do is right for you or the best way to go ! It's what works for us !

I have nothing to sell or push onto you ! I share the info so you can try it and if you like it and works for you. Then you can be happy that the info was there to be shared for all to see and it's free.

If you try the process and find that its not for you or did not work like you thought, then please share your comments and thoughts ! Processes can always be improved and adapted for better results.

Is there a less than perfection with holding the wheel and moving it up and down on the rod, sure, its the perfect process, you could always place the wheel into a lathe and with near perfect alignment move the rod into and out of the wheel bore.

But my outlook here is the kids can do this wouthout risk of injury or major damage of ruining the wheel. The sand paper being so fine, will get ruined before the wheel bore does !

This forum is about having the kids in the back of my mind with the info I place out here also. somewhere recently I posted in the 2010 test cars, the video of my 9 year old doing this prep work ! its not a full video, but he can do it !

Sporty

[sporty]

Sporty

[FatSebastian]

As I mentioned before the micromesh can be ordered by calling them to get the adheasive backed micromesh.

Sporty, since the Micromesh product you have recommended is not listed, do you have supplier part numbers or prices or any other information that would facilitate somebody wanting to order the supplies to try your recommended technique?

So I will play with 3m supper 77 spray, different glues or even double sided thin sticky tape to adhear to the drill rod.

I am wondering if you could take the slotted Pro Bore Polisher, slide the paper in the slot where the pipe cleaner goes, and then sufficiently wrap it around the shaft until it is the appropriate diameter?

[sporty]

Hi sporty, we don't have this on our website, its a flat 10% upcharge. You'd
need to phone your order in to our sales dept. at 800.225.3006. The price
would be:

3" x 6"=$2.61
6" x 12"=$8.61
12" x 12"=$13.95

Regards,
Debbie Abrahams
Inside Sales Mgr
Micro-Surface Finishing Products, Inc.
1217 West Third Street
PO Box 70
Wilton IA 52778
Phone: 563-732-3240, ext # 223
Phone: 800-225-3006
Fax: 563-732-3390
Email: debbie_abrahams@micro-surface.com" target="_blank


So you need to call in and ask for the adheasived backed micromesh. 4,000,6,000,8000,12,000.


You could try the tool for the pipecleaner, I was worried about the shifting or raised or lower surface caused by overlaping, which seems Hard to reduce or eliminate at this early stage.

But sure why not try it out. It may not grip the paper well enough to hold it and then you might get by without needing the adheasived backed micromesh.

Then with adding the paper will it make the diameter to big and not fit into the wheel bore. I don't know because I just never tried that.

But it's something to try and look at, it might work.

Sporty

[murphken]

Sporty, You really got some drive to "raise the bar" to get speed out of these little cars! Nice job!

I was thinking the same thing as Sebastian > Slot a rod and slide the abrasive paper into the slit of the rod. Today, I called Hobbytown USA in Chattanooga. They sell carbon fiber rod at much smaller diameters than the wheel bore.

One could possibly take a hobby knife to the carbon fiber rod and make the slit to slide the polishing strip into. Then, the rest of the strip would form a whip that is pressed against the inner diameter of the bore by centrifugal force.

I have never worked with carbon fiber in my machine design work. I am presuming that it can be cut with a shape hobby knife! I will purchase some of this material and see what I can do.

What Sporty has shown is another possible process that could possibly be seen a "step change" in bore preparation process development. We will give this a try and will post our results!

We have a high powered microscope at work and it has a camera on it! I have tried to capture an image of the wheel bore but the lighting is either too bright or too dim. Kinda like Goldie Locks and the three bears!. I will keep working on this and see if I can show some results of bore preparation.

Murph

[pwrd by tungsten]

Be sure to wear a mask when working with Carbon Fiber...

[sporty]

Sporty, You really got some drive to "raise the bar" to get speed out of these little cars! Nice job!

I was thinking the same thing as Sebastian > Slot a rod and slide the abrasive paper into the slit of the rod. Today, I called Hobbytown USA in Chattanooga. They sell carbon fiber rod at much smaller diameters than the wheel bore.

One could possibly take a hobby knife to the carbon fiber rod and make the slit to slide the polishing strip into. Then, the rest of the strip would form a whip that is pressed against the inner diameter of the bore by centrifugal force.

I have never worked with carbon fiber in my machine design work. I am presuming that it can be cut with a shape hobby knife! I will purchase some of this material and see what I can do.

What Sporty has shown is another possible process that could possibly be seen a "step change" in bore preparation process development. We will give this a try and will post our results!

We have a high powered microscope at work and it has a camera on it! I have tried to capture an image of the wheel bore but the lighting is either too bright or too dim. Kinda like Goldie Locks and the three bears!. I will keep working on this and see if I can show some results of bore preparation.

Murph

Thank you, I think many more have raised the bar to go faster. Some just share more than others. Aside from that, I would leave here someday knowing that i was able to share and give more to the forum, than what I came in with. Much of what I have learned has came from this from and other forums.
I'm excited you are going to give this a try and will be able to share your thoughts and comments about it when and after you try it out. Then the microscope inspection is a real added value that you will be able to add to all of this in the in. I already look forward to hearing about that, before and after pictures, if you get that light issue figured out sounds just great.

I'm able with just the human eye, see the plus side to this method, just by comparing previous method and this method, by holding the wheel by a light and angling the wheel to see the bore real good. But a more detailed scope of it all just excites me to see that.

Sporty

[sporty]

FYI,

If we or I can get some of the MFG's to do the sand paper coating on a small rod or wooden rod. This would be a great way to offer this to anyone interested in a kit package.

The biggest issue is $$$, as it would take a large investment to get them to do this. but perhaps one of the vendors for pinewood derby goodies will come up with something or has a idea also.

So vendors, chime in here please.

Sporty

[subnet99]

Sporty,

I assume the products you purchased from Precision Polishing are the 3M Aluminum Oxide Imperial Diamond Lapping Film in .05, .3, 1 and 3 micron grits. Any updates on which adhesives work best with these? Also, what size sheets did you buy and what did they cost?

Thanks,

Subnet99

[sporty]

Subnet,

I will have hopefully my new drill rod this weekend. the micromesh I got ordered with adheasive backing.

Now I can not recall off hand the side of the sand paper without measuring, but the small size works find, you do not need much , you are wrapping around a small rod.

I have tried 3m super 77 and I wasn to try double sided sticky tape. I spray the rod and not the sand paper.

There are alot of thin glues out there that I would like to try, its easy with the 3m super 77 to spray on to much. there are alot of craft spray glues out there on the market and your local super wal-mart also. I even thought about plastic cement, the wipe on with the brush.

Then as it was suggested to try using the pipe cleaner tool and use the slot to wrap a piece around and try it that way.

There are also a few vendors for pwd products that sell that in a packet for a decent price.

I will shoot you a pm.


Sporty

[sporty]

UPDATE- UPDATE-


Well i'm still waiting on some small enough rod.

however, I knew I could still do some prep inspection and work today.

So I am filling you in on my thoughts on this.


micro-mesh compared to the plastic backed micron sand paper.

I just polished the outside of the wheels and edge.


The plastic backed micron sand paper, I feel is a waiste of time.

Why-

Well you are not able to apply enough presure to get even coverage. It wrecks easy and the micron coating is just not thick enough on the plastic backed sand paper to do a effective job.

I started with 9 micron and worked my way to .005 micron and the area that it did touch, looked good, but so much of the area was not evenly covered and I actually felt the shine and gloss was not there. When comparing the micro-mesh 4,000,6,000,8,000,12,000 same process.

I feel the micro-mesh being thicker on the sand paper, is one of the reasons why, its more durable and allows better pressure and more even application. As it wears it also just dulls the micro-mesh. where it's actually going into the sub micron range anyhow.

It also could be the micro-mesh is more geared towards plastic. Versus the plastic micron backed sand paper, more towards metal or diamonds.

Now , I also did some axles and found no advantage over the other, when comparing the two. So I actually felt the two were equal, atleast per the human eye.

If I also started with the micro-mesh and went to the sub micron plastic backed sand paper, it actually dulled the surface some.

Which leads me to stick with micro-mesh instead of the plastic backed sand paper.

So if the plastic backed can not do a decent job on the outside of the wheel and edge, then I see no reason for it to work well on the inside of the wheel bore.

Sporty

[subnet99]

Sporty,

I just placed an order with micro-surface yesterday for the 4000,6000,8000 and 12000 grit adhesive backed sheets. I am going to try it on some straightened electric fence wire which is very rigid. I'll let you know how I make out. I also have the following from WinDerby:
3µm polishing paper
2µm polishing paper
1µm polishing paper
0.3µm polishing paper

Sounds like your testing above 12,000 grit is not going well. Please keep us updated and I will let you know sometime next week how the fence wire is working.

Sunbet99

[sporty]

Sporty,

I just placed an order with micro-surface yesterday for the 4000,6000,8000 and 12000 grit adhesive backed sheets. I am going to try it on some straightened electric fence wire which is very rigid. I'll let you know how I make out. I also have the following from WinDerby:
3µm polishing paper
2µm polishing paper
1µm polishing paper
0.3µm polishing paper

Sounds like your testing above 12,000 grit is not going well. Please keep us updated and I will let you know sometime next week how the fence wire is working.

Sunbet99

Well what I found out is that the 12,000 micromesh as it is used, actually becomes a finer sub micron sandpaper.

So thats why I did not see a finer finish adding ontop of the 12,000 to the .03 and .005 micron.

But the plsu was the durability of the micromesh, that prevented damage and wear through on the sanding material. versus the plastic backed, that quickly went through the thincoating with applying mild pressure.

I look forward to your results and comments.

Sporty

[sporty]

Another update !


Well I am getting closer I feel on a proper sized rod to wrap the micro-mesh sand paper around.


today I tried 1/16th drill rod. .060 / .062 seems to range.

Still to big !!!!!

now im gonna invest in to .050 and .040 carbon rod. not so easy to find the drill rod in that size.


However, tower hobbies.com and acp composites inc, carry these sizes.

So A few more dollars to invest in getting the right size for a good wrapped micro-mesh sandpaper for the wheel bore prep / polish.

So those going to try and do this process, i would get those sizes to try. I feel one or the other is going to work.


You still have t wrap and use carefully pen style krazy glue to get the micro-mesh to stay held and wrapped around that tiny of a diameter. This i know works. The carfull part is to ensure no glue gets on the sandpaper, but the pen type seems to work just fine for this.


Sporty

[sporty]

.050 works just right !

here is a video of assembly of the new bore prep rod and paper.

While no pro at the video action, Dalton did the shooting and it is was it is. So hope it is usefull and helpfull for those wanting to go to this process.



Sporty