Wheel replacement guide questions
- FatSebastian
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Wheel replacement guide questions
Some racers replace the non-dominant front wheel with a pin, fin, or guide. Here is an example of a commercial offering:
Questions:
1. What is the preferred nomenclature for this thing? I have come across "4th Wheel Replacement Fin" (Lester Racing) and "Center Rail Guide Peg" (DerbyMoneyGarage); there may be others.
2. Is this pin/fin intended to ride the rail, or steer clear from the rail? I've seen lots of photos of cars having these, but have never seen one "in action".
3. Can someone who has used this design comment on its effectiveness? Is it be better to have a static pin/fin ride the rail versus the dominant front wheel? Is a fin better than a pin?
(I apologize in advance if this has been discussed. I'm not sure what these things are called, which makes searching for info difficult! A pointer to an appropriate thread would be appreciated, if available.)
Questions:
1. What is the preferred nomenclature for this thing? I have come across "4th Wheel Replacement Fin" (Lester Racing) and "Center Rail Guide Peg" (DerbyMoneyGarage); there may be others.
2. Is this pin/fin intended to ride the rail, or steer clear from the rail? I've seen lots of photos of cars having these, but have never seen one "in action".
3. Can someone who has used this design comment on its effectiveness? Is it be better to have a static pin/fin ride the rail versus the dominant front wheel? Is a fin better than a pin?
(I apologize in advance if this has been discussed. I'm not sure what these things are called, which makes searching for info difficult! A pointer to an appropriate thread would be appreciated, if available.)
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Don't know of any standard name. . . the manufacturer and resellers are attempting to give it meaning though.
A one sentence reply might be:
The purpose is to reduce the wind resistance while performing the same "safety guide" feature of the raised front wheel in a Rail-Rider(tm) design where four wheels are not required.
(and YES, I do believe that "Rail-Rider" is a trade mark. . . .about all I can say)
A one sentence reply might be:
The purpose is to reduce the wind resistance while performing the same "safety guide" feature of the raised front wheel in a Rail-Rider(tm) design where four wheels are not required.
(and YES, I do believe that "Rail-Rider" is a trade mark. . . .about all I can say)
Mr. Slick says: Honey, I am doing this for the kids, not myself.
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
FatSebastian,
To answer your questions...
1. In the leagues we just call it a "peg".
2. The peg is NOT intended to ride the rail, doing so will slow you down.
3. The pegs are used for several different reasons. A. They are a "safety net". If you remove one front wheel and the car decides to get swirly or doesn't run to rail properly, the peg catches the car on the rail and keeps in from leaving it's lane and hitting another car or flying off the track. B. There is some speed increase with using the peg. It allows you add more weight in the back of the car and also removes the "dead" wheel off the front of the car where it is doing nothing but basically catching wind. In my testing, I have seen an average of a hundredth + gained when the wheel is removed and replaced with a peg on a car with wide wheels. I actually had one car that I gained 2 hundredths with . I have seen a little gain with cars running razor wheels, but depending on the level of racing you are at, a "little" gain can make a big difference in the outcome !!
I hope this answers your questions.
Lucky 13
To answer your questions...
1. In the leagues we just call it a "peg".
2. The peg is NOT intended to ride the rail, doing so will slow you down.
3. The pegs are used for several different reasons. A. They are a "safety net". If you remove one front wheel and the car decides to get swirly or doesn't run to rail properly, the peg catches the car on the rail and keeps in from leaving it's lane and hitting another car or flying off the track. B. There is some speed increase with using the peg. It allows you add more weight in the back of the car and also removes the "dead" wheel off the front of the car where it is doing nothing but basically catching wind. In my testing, I have seen an average of a hundredth + gained when the wheel is removed and replaced with a peg on a car with wide wheels. I actually had one car that I gained 2 hundredths with . I have seen a little gain with cars running razor wheels, but depending on the level of racing you are at, a "little" gain can make a big difference in the outcome !!
I hope this answers your questions.
Lucky 13
- FatSebastian
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
To a large degree it confirms my suspicions, yes. Thanks L13 and MrS! Since there is no intention of rail contact, I would be inclined to suppose that the precise placement and material aren't all that critical, as long as the peg remains reasonably sturdy and streamlined.Lucky13 wrote:I hope this answers your questions.
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
FatSebastian wrote:To a large degree it confirms my suspicions, yes. Thanks L13 and MrS! Since there is no intention of rail contact, I would be inclined to suppose that the precise placement and material aren't all that critical, as long as the peg remains reasonably sturdy and streamlined.Lucky13 wrote:I hope this answers your questions.
Precise placement and material aren't that critical...correct. Just make sure the peg clears the track and is low enough that if the car gets crazy it will catch the rail !! I've seen what happens when it doesn't !! You do want to keep it streamlined and sturdy. Until Lester Racing released the laser cut versions, I seen many variations of "pegs"...wood, plastic, bent axles covered with sleeves, etc.. There are many options out there, but now that commercial ones are available, it makes it a lot easier. Here is a picture of one of my cars with a custom "Lucky 13" peg made by Lester Racing on it...
Lucky 13
- Go Bubba Go
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Don't underestimate the value of the "safety net" function.
At the "beginner" level events, you often run into tracks that are either poorly maintained (and in poor condition), poorly setup (esp. not level side to side), or both. It is quite possible that you will experience some sideways drift that you would not experience on a well maintained and well setup track.
And don't forget about the stop section. You will often observe a bit of "yaw" with cars as they stop. If your car is the first down the track, you don't want to leave your front end free to drift into the next lane just in time for impact from the car behind it. While you will have set up your car to stop quickly (in case you get a short stop section with the "impact pillow" at the end), the next car may "ride high" and hit you from behind pretty near full speed.
My 2 cents, otherwise I think Lucky pretty well covered it.
Bubba
At the "beginner" level events, you often run into tracks that are either poorly maintained (and in poor condition), poorly setup (esp. not level side to side), or both. It is quite possible that you will experience some sideways drift that you would not experience on a well maintained and well setup track.
And don't forget about the stop section. You will often observe a bit of "yaw" with cars as they stop. If your car is the first down the track, you don't want to leave your front end free to drift into the next lane just in time for impact from the car behind it. While you will have set up your car to stop quickly (in case you get a short stop section with the "impact pillow" at the end), the next car may "ride high" and hit you from behind pretty near full speed.
My 2 cents, otherwise I think Lucky pretty well covered it.
Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
- FatSebastian
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Lucky13 wrote:You do want to keep it streamlined and sturdy.
I notice that these examples are fastened with two screws. Does it need to be that sturdy? Does it need to be removable?Go Bubba Go wrote:Don't underestimate the value of the "safety net" function.
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
The screws provide most support in case of the peg getting hit or hitting a bad joint por stop section.FatSebastian wrote:Lucky13 wrote:You do want to keep it streamlined and sturdy.I notice that these examples are fastened with two screws. Does it need to be that sturdy? Does it need to be removable?Go Bubba Go wrote:Don't underestimate the value of the "safety net" function.
Mine are put on with superglue. I have had them come off due to an uneven joint or catching something in the stopping section. I never leave enough room for screws - I need to start.
- Go Bubba Go
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Oops... forgot to mention.FatSebastian wrote:Lucky13 wrote:You do want to keep it streamlined and sturdy.I notice that these examples are fastened with two screws. Does it need to be that sturdy? Does it need to be removable?Go Bubba Go wrote:Don't underestimate the value of the "safety net" function.
Most of our experience with these is with big axle (i.e. not needle axle) cars. We typically just install another axle and bend it down 90 degrees to fit. Good job for a "defective" out of the box axle. Doesn't look as "snazzy", but easily removable and can be replaced with a regular axle/wheel setup for a more "traditional" race.
Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
- andylester
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Rich,psycaz wrote:The screws provide most support in case of the peg getting hit or hitting a bad joint por stop section.FatSebastian wrote:I notice that these examples are fastened with two screws. Does it need to be that sturdy? Does it need to be removable?
Mine are put on with superglue. I have had them come off due to an uneven joint or catching something in the stopping section. I never leave enough room for screws - I need to start.
At Lima I was racing your twin's car (Yzerman) for Motown and the Hockey Stick peg that we made for that car hit the stop section wrong and it broke off! That peg was facing forward and was not like the one in the photo, but more of a novelty peg.
The plastic these things are made out of seems to hold up pretty well. They have enough flex to them to take a beating, but they hold up pretty decent under fire and repeated abuse. I have found that two screws works well in keeping them from rotating when they hit something hard like a stop section.
Thanks,
Andy Lester, Owner
Lester Racing - Laser Cut Gravity Car Innovation
http://www.lesterracing.net" target="_blank
Mountaineer Precision Products
http://www.mpp-models.com" target="_blank
Andy Lester, Owner
Lester Racing - Laser Cut Gravity Car Innovation
http://www.lesterracing.net" target="_blank
Mountaineer Precision Products
http://www.mpp-models.com" target="_blank
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
I saw that it split. I actually broke mine off trying to get it ready for Lima. I broke off another one of mine own creations too at Lima - I still owe you for getting me back into the action.andylester wrote:Rich,psycaz wrote:
The screws provide most support in case of the peg getting hit or hitting a bad joint por stop section.
Mine are put on with superglue. I have had them come off due to an uneven joint or catching something in the stopping section. I never leave enough room for screws - I need to start.
At Lima I was racing your twin's car (Yzerman) for Motown and the Hockey Stick peg that we made for that car hit the stop section wrong and it broke off! That peg was facing forward and was not like the one in the photo, but more of a novelty peg.
The plastic these things are made out of seems to hold up pretty well. They have enough flex to them to take a beating, but they hold up pretty decent under fire and repeated abuse. I have found that two screws works well in keeping them from rotating when they hit something hard like a stop section.
Hence why I think I have to start leaving room for those screws.
Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
After reading this thread I thought about using a peg in place of a front wheel. Our rules state that you must have all four wheels mounted on the car but we are allowed to run with a raised wheel. And we do not have to use the slots either.
So one question I have is would it be fair and not against the rules to place one of the front wheels on the other side and use a peg up there? I hate to start asking around my council too much because I hate to give away this idea. Like everyone said here, it would move the weight of the wheel to the back and help a tad with wind resistance. We have some fast cars in our pack and council so every little bit I can add will help!
I plan to do a rail rider with the dom wheel on the front left and the peg on the right.
Thanks!
So one question I have is would it be fair and not against the rules to place one of the front wheels on the other side and use a peg up there? I hate to start asking around my council too much because I hate to give away this idea. Like everyone said here, it would move the weight of the wheel to the back and help a tad with wind resistance. We have some fast cars in our pack and council so every little bit I can add will help!
I plan to do a rail rider with the dom wheel on the front left and the peg on the right.
Thanks!
- andylester
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
You may want to build the car like you said with the 4th wheel hidden, keep yourself quiet, and see if it passes inspection. If it does not pass, you should have the car built to where you can quickly remove the fin, pull out the wheel and put it back in place. Keep a piece of painters tape handy and put it over the hole in the bottom and you should be good to go. That should keep most folks happy. Well, at least the rule enforcer guys....You will never make the parents happy if you happen to beat them!DerbyNut wrote:After reading this thread I thought about using a peg in place of a front wheel. Our rules state that you must have all four wheels mounted on the car but we are allowed to run with a raised wheel. And we do not have to use the slots either.
So one question I have is would it be fair and not against the rules to place one of the front wheels on the other side and use a peg up there? I hate to start asking around my council too much because I hate to give away this idea. Like everyone said here, it would move the weight of the wheel to the back and help a tad with wind resistance. We have some fast cars in our pack and council so every little bit I can add will help!
I plan to do a rail rider with the dom wheel on the front left and the peg on the right.
Thanks!
Thanks,
Andy Lester, Owner
Lester Racing - Laser Cut Gravity Car Innovation
http://www.lesterracing.net" target="_blank
Mountaineer Precision Products
http://www.mpp-models.com" target="_blank
Andy Lester, Owner
Lester Racing - Laser Cut Gravity Car Innovation
http://www.lesterracing.net" target="_blank
Mountaineer Precision Products
http://www.mpp-models.com" target="_blank
- ninjarabbi1997
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Derbynut,
It doesn't sound like your rules say where the wheel must be mounted. Some league racers mount the wheel in the body of the car:
http://pddr.proboards.com/index.cgi?boa ... thread=190
You could use the peg and gain the aerodynamic advantages discussed above.
It doesn't sound like your rules say where the wheel must be mounted. Some league racers mount the wheel in the body of the car:
http://pddr.proboards.com/index.cgi?boa ... thread=190
You could use the peg and gain the aerodynamic advantages discussed above.
Love God. Love People. Pass it On.
- FatSebastian
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Re: Wheel replacement guide questions
Sounds like you've already seen this recent thread, and understand that the potential speed benefits are not as large as other design aspects (e.g., COM placement, alignment, wheel and axle prep, etc.). Putting three wheels on one side sounds completely legal under your rules as you've described them, and would likely raise less eyebrows and be easier to construct than trying to embed the 4th wheel into the body (which also sounds legal).DerbyNut wrote:Our rules state that you must have all four wheels mounted on the car but we are allowed to run with a raised wheel. And we do not have to use the slots either. So one question I have is would it be fair and not against the rules to place one of the front wheels on the other side and use a peg up there?
Your question about legality is especially important if the people you would ask about legality are not actually doing the inspections and/or don't have the final say regarding rule interpretation at race time. There's always some risk with trying something innovative, even if it apparently legal, so if this is your son's car, discuss the risk and benefits with him and get him involved with making the decision on where to place the 4th wheel.