Wheel/Axle prep - Graphite Packing

zoomer · Post by **zoomer** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:29 pm

In previous years I had taken the car after the wheels are mounted, load the wheels w/ graphite, then take my dremel with a buffing wheel and spin the wheels to "break them in" to the axle.

I was looking on Youtube the other day and found this one on "Graphite Packing" - basically packing the hub with graphite prior to mounting -

https://youtu.be/

Just wondering what anyone thinks.

hwsjr · Post by **hwsjr** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:05 pm

I just don't see the benefit and could see a lot of dangers. Packed that tightly couldn't the graphite itself scratch those polished bores? And what happens if a big chunk or clump of that compressed graphite stays in the bore for the race? We didn't pack last year and our graphite lasted a lot longer than the 9 runs he mentions.

One guy in our pack, packs the bores. He makes very good cars, but they always have a few very bad runs at the first.

If a little bit of something is good, it does not always mean that twice as much is twice as good.

sporty · Post by **sporty** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:30 pm

There are many factors in lube prep work.

Over packing is not really a very good idea and will likely slow the car down for many runs before before getting to the effectiveness of the lube.

Often as it is, many are adding to much lube into the wheel prior to the race.

There are many items that can be looked at and or often get over looked at.

The type of lube you use, how you apply it, the axle prep and bore prep work.

Then alignment, friction too much to the axle head or to much to the body of the car. also shortens the effectiveness and life of the lube.

you do not have to over pack like that to get 9 to 12 runs out of the lube with good performance in mind.

now there are not many lube that can go beyond 14 runs. very few and many turn to oils, if allowed in these cases.

word of caution, there are many gimics and posted info out there. so it's good that you posted and inquired about this.

Many here and at a few other forums can really provide good and accurate info, to better serve you.

In my view if you are adding more than 6 dabs of lube, you are adding too much.
Dab- brush, fine tip, lube on the tip inserted into the wheel bore, with the axle on already.

I have seen just 1 to 3 dabs last 9 runs with good results.

I always feel, different lubes, can help or hinder you're type of race format. they are not all equal and they are not all the same or work the same.

Sporty

FatSebastian · Post by **FatSebastian** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:46 pm

zoomer wrote:Just wondering what anyone thinks.

zoomer. The idea of "packing" graphite seems to go against the laboratory research of Doc Jobe, who has suggested that a monomolecular film - an invisible layer of graphite that is little more than one molecule thick - is actually the optimal amount of lubrication (of course the disadvantage of a such a very thin coating is that it doesn't last long, maybe half a dozen runs at most?). It is hard to imagine how excessive amounts of "packed" graphite is supposed to provide any racing benefit, and it was not clear to me from the video was the "packer" was or how it worked exactly.

pwrd by tungsten · Post by **pwrd by tungsten** » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:34 pm

Tooo much graphite will ruin your times...

For sure dont pack it in there...

you can still put a lot on there but the video is simple too much...

zeezop · Post by **zeezop** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:51 am

My guess is that the guy in the video was trying to emulate a graphite bushing.

OneHour · Post by **OneHour** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:56 am

Unless something is attached to keep the graphite in the bores, this car will leave a black trails. As one of the organizers in the past (especially having to clean the track) ... I seriously do not like cars that leave a trail of graphites on the track, on the handlers' clothes, on other cars' paint job, and on the floor. It simply makes too much of a mess and does nothing more for the speed of the car. Impregnate the graphite into the bores and as much on the axles as possible is the way to go.

1Hour

Stan Pope · Post by **Stan Pope** » Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:08 am

zeezop wrote:My guess is that the guy in the video was trying to emulate a graphite bushing.

Yes, but was unsuccessful. Did you notice the wheel chatter during some of the wheel spins?

PWD_addict · Post by **PWD_addict** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:32 am

I've got to bring up this old thread. I think this graphite packing may have some validity based on our experience at Districts this year. My 6 year old son won the Pack races back in January. It was fairly close. Over the past 6 years, my sons and I have won the Pack 5 times. My daughter or younger son has won the Pack Sibling races 5 out of 6 times. Over the past 5 years that they've had District races, we've won 2 times and come in second each other time. 2 of those 2nd places were to cars that I helped build and align for RR. So, we've had some success in Pinewood Derby. Primarily we build 3 wheel RRs with not-too-aggressive COM (usually about 1.25-1.5"), due to the bumpy track we run on. The car this year was as fast as most of what we've built in the past. Because our track is old (10+ year old Beta Craft aluminum 45.5 from start to finish), it's tough to compare speeds from one year to another.

At the District races, my son came in first in Tigers, and ended up second in the Grand Finals. During the rank races, my son's car was the fastest out of every car in every other rank that ran. However, during the GFs, our car slowed down a bit while the winner's car (Webelos I) sped up. He won by an average of 0.04s per race--which is pretty big. I'm good friends with the family and asked the Dad about how they built the car. No rail-riding, about 1" COM, 3 wheeler. They clearly did a nice job on axle polishing. He says that his trick was packing the hubs with graphite and alcohol mix and letting it dry. The car was slower in the first set of races (8 lanes=8 races), but sped up continuously, and, as mentioned, won the Grand Finals round (another 8 races) by an average of 0.04s.

Now, I know I can blame some of the loss to me being lax about regraphiting my son's car before the District races. I'm the chair for our District races and didn't have much time to do stuff to the car so a quick re-graphiting was all it got. Irrespective of the fact that we might have won with better prep, there is no denying that the Web 1's car was really fast. It's possible that it was an accidental rail-rider (can't imagine that it wasn't). I haven't dissected the race video just to see but I don't think the camera we use is good enough to be able to tell.

Not only did they have one fast car for the Districts, the two adult cars they made during our Pack races were also the class of the field. So, one car wasn't just beginner's luck (yes, the boy just joined this year). And, what are the chances that all three were accidental rail-riders?

I know this thread above doesn't give the graphite/alcohol packing idea much credence, but I'm here to testify that I saw it work. Is there anyone else that has witnessed this working?

Noskills · Post by **Noskills** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:54 pm

I have been appling the graphite like the guy in the video (but neater), but then flicking it into the bore. I then move the axel up and down la little ike a gentle butter churner. Do this about 2-2 times. Seems to be enough. I agree this video seems excessive.
Noskills

Aron · Post by **Aron** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:21 pm

Graphite/Alcohol mix? Intresting. Anyone else seen this used? Seems to me that if this method was used it would have to be done with specific amounts of graphite and alcohol

hard to imagine it would change the results that much

geauxturbo · Post by **geauxturbo** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:06 pm

There is some manufactured for locks. Don't know the name brand, but I used to have a little blue bottle of it.

PWD_addict · Post by **PWD_addict** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:11 pm

Aron wrote:Graphite/Alcohol mix? Intresting. Anyone else seen this used? Seems to me that if this method was used it would have to be done with specific amounts of graphite and alcohol hard to imagine it would change the results that much

If it had a "bearing"effect, it should have been faster in the beginning. Maybe it just compacts it enough that it stays in the bore for longer than the normal 8-12 runs. Slow in the beginning, speeding up later.

sporty · Post by **sporty** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:03 pm

Packing the graphite, depending on what kind used. often makes the graphite a tad harder. meaning more friction.

But all packing is really doing is making like many of you say, a type of bearing / the alcohol makes it stick together longer.

But when I tried this years ago, as this is really not a new method. It was slow for the first 4 to 6 runs and then got faster.

But really the faster speeds were not more than what is seen with more typically application processes.

this is just really giving you some longer runs on the graphite. but overall, i doubt the times are faster than the newer methods.

As I never seen no super speed times when I tried it years ago.

Sporty

whodathunkit · Post by **whodathunkit** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:29 pm

Sporty,

Out of all of the bore preps and lube testings you have done.
Have you ever tryed useing the BP2000 (sub-micron moly powder) with TUF-GLIDE in conjunction
to the BP2000 powder?

I've seen a Web-site that is doing this.
I have no idea if it is any faster!
So I just thought i'd throw it on this topic as well.

Hopeing you might be able to add your thoughts on it if you have tryed it in all your
bore preps and lube testings.

Mark.

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