Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

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sporty
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by sporty »

Speed, I have read you're posts and I think totally I since what you are saying and trying to convey all in a good and rounded outlook way.

sometimes we tend to get to analitical with things and my opologies on that.

Other rambles, was allot for me to read through.

Are pack and council, also require 4 wheels with 4 on the ground and no cant. I think the rules are a stad strict. But have been in place for awhile and most are use to is and have no issues with it. Only the more long term scout families who had younger kids and over time see more of a issue with it.

It still takes a commitee, council to vote or change rules. i'm sure much talk goes on every year all over. Like are area packs. Most of the rules are the same as council. So in a since Council dictates the rules for the area packs.

We have pretty trick holding and lube rules also. Meaning after the car wins the pack race, its sealed and stored in a box with the pack for upto 4 months before the race, then it is opened in front of the inspector / check in at council on race day. No relube on race day allowed.

I often see many posts and families mention, how they get to take the car home and tinker and ect. We do not have this often. Actually despite this process being strick, I like it aside from some of the local area packs having there races more closer to the council race date and the cars having less storage time then some of the other packs.

Now I think its easy for a kid to do a car, however, it's always the time and what the child and parent know that allow for more work and time to be placed into the car.

Every childs ability is different and certainly there age also is a factor. But have seen some tigers that could do allot and i have seen some webelos that could do very little.

Then regardless, many loose interest after a short period of time.

Every parent and family concept and bond is different, some parent can have closer bond or relationship and be able to acomplish more with their child, while others have less of a bond and closeness with there child.

Some are just going through the motions, its just a piece of wood to quickly get built and over with.

So, rather than debate, if canting or strait axles is easier for a scout to do. Id rather look at the perspective point of view. that many single parents seem to be the core group these days of scouting, many single moms. I have also met plenty of dads over the years that have really very limited ability on wood working, polishing, sanding, ect.

Sorry for the long post, hope this provides what I feel is the core view here, that might have gotten over looked some.

Sporty
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FatSebastian
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by FatSebastian »

Humvderby wrote:However I think the rules could also imply you must use the Wheels provided in the Kit...the rules seem somewhat ambiguous. I don't see anywhere in the rules that state "1 gram BSA Speed Wheels from a reseller are acceptable"......therefore as I stated in my previous post I think they need better clarification and clearly state the use of purchased 1 gram wheels are acceptable or enforce they must use the Wheels provided in the kit.
Stan once made a very good point about the context of rules:
you have to look at the entire rule set and look at whether it is written from the position of listing what is permitted or written from the position of listing what is prohibited. If the rule set orientation is "what is permitted", then the unmentioned is prohibited! On the other hand, if the orientation is "what is prohibited", then the unmentioned is permitted.
IMO these rules - like most I've seen - were written from the perspective of listing "what is prohibited" per page 3 (although a few "examples of modifications that are allowed" seem to have been added for clarification to page 4). While there's always room for improvement in any set of rules, I felt there was no ambiguity "looking at the rules in context" (not to mention the enforcement issues when trying to the determine the origin of lathed wheels?). Of course that was my personal opinion; others may read the rules and come to a different determination altogether. That's okay too, I suppose, but I would ask the official in charge if there was any doubt in my mind.
Humvderby wrote:I think the need to use 1 gram Wheels to be competitive may be a bigger issue.
:nod: Agree.
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by gpraceman »

I haven't been following this thread closely, but it seems that it has gotten way off topic.
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by Humvderby »

FatSebastian wrote:Stan once made a very good point about the context of rules:
you have to look at the entire rule set and look at whether it is written from the position of listing what is permitted or written from the position of listing what is prohibited. If the rule set orientation is "what is permitted", then the unmentioned is prohibited! On the other hand, if the orientation is "what is prohibited", then the unmentioned is permitted.
IMO these rules - like most I've seen - were written from the perspective of listing "what is prohibited" per page 3 (although a few "examples of modifications that are allowed" seem to have been added for clarification to page 4). While there's always room for improvement in any set of rules, I felt there was no ambiguity "looking at the rules in context" (not to mention the enforcement issues when trying to the determine the origin of lathed wheels?). Of course that was my personal opinion; others may read the rules and come to a different determination altogether. That's okay too, I suppose, but I would ask the official in charge if there was any doubt in my mind.
Humvderby wrote:I think the need to use 1 gram Wheels to be competitive may be a bigger issue.
:nod: Agree.
FS,

I completely agree....However I think with your experience and certainly Stan's experience you both have the ability to look at the rules in a different way than a person participating in their first or second race. I am fairly sure Stan has seen just about every way you can write a set of rules (and has probably written a few himself) and as you can tell from his post quoted above, he has developed a keen sense for understanding them in a way that most new to Pinewood would not. You and Stan have a better sense of how to read them and what to look for than most newer (and seasoned) racers.

I've been around Pinewood for a while and you certainly picked up a different perspective of the rules (which is very credible) than I did. I simply saw "use the materials provided in the Kit" and thought ok, you're suppose to use the Wheels in the Kit. I have to say I would have been very hesitant to use the 1 gram Wheels in lieu of the ones provided in the kit. The rules regarding the use of 1 gram Wheels seem a bit ambiguous to me.

So as not to stray to far from my original point, unless they are purchased, I think making a set of 1 gram Wheels is far more complicated for a Scout than Canting Axles.

Randy should we start another thread?

Humv
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FatSebastian
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by FatSebastian »

Humvderby wrote:So as not to stray to far from my original point, unless they are purchased, I think making a set of 1 gram Wheels is far more complicated for a Scout than Canting Axles.
:nod: I would let my Cub click the "Add to Cart" button for the lathed wheels - that's certainly less complicated! ;)
Humvderby wrote:Randy should we start another thread?
:polling:
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by Humvderby »

FatSebastian wrote: :nod: I would let my Cub click the "Add to Cart" button for the lathed wheels - that's certainly less complicated! ;)
FS,
Letting your Cub click the "Add to Cart" button would certainly be in keeping with "Let the Cub do most of the Work"! :lol: :bigups: :thinking:

Humv :thinking:
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rrrbbb
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by rrrbbb »

STL_Racer - check your PM's. Sent you some a while back.
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Doug Piranha
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by Doug Piranha »

Our team was the ones riding on 3 wheels and a guide. We finished 4th, 5th, and the other 3 were in teens and twenties. As hard as we try we cant seem to get to first :thinking: Grats on your first place finish!

Here is a pic of our team this year.
Image
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Re: Son won BIG St. Louis district race today

Post by PWD_addict »

Congrats on the big win. I am pretty confident that we don't even have 500 Cub Scouts in our District. That's incredibly awesome.

At the risk of keeping "off-topic", the intent of the rules really go back to what the writer had "intended". You could always ask for clarification from the Derby chair, as I encourage from my Pack and anyone in the District.

Knowing how random the pre-2009 wheels were, if you had to use the wheels in the box, some boys wouldn't have a chance at doing well. That's why I don't like that particular interpretation of that rule.
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