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 Derby Dust 
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Apprentice
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:46 am
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Has anybody here used Derby Dust, and if so what are you opinions on it?

Also, I heard someone say you can actually polish your axles to much, using to high of grit to polish with. I was going to try diamond spray, around 200,000 grit this year. Think that is to high?

Thanks in advance for any answers.


Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:41 am
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Good questions!

The "promo hype" says "proprietary blend of the industry best dry lubes". The MSDS says "100% graphite". Assuming 100% honesty, I think that this implies that they have selected specific shapes for the 100% graphite particles rather than incorporating non-graphite additives, such as with Hodges moly-graphite.

It is refreshing that the promo includes specific results and details the test environment very thoroughly!

The "layering" claim is difficult to assess. The essence of lubrication is to avoid the lubricant sticking to two surfaces, but rather moving freely against (at least) one of the surfaces. The value of layering seems to me to be longevity. "Hats off" if they can make it stick selectively!

The break-in process sounds reasonable, though I have some concerns about its accuracy in alignment. It appears that it may not be applicable to cambered axles, unless its intent is to result in a bit of toe-in that just offsets the drift-out caused by negative axle camber.

On the question of "too polished"... I've heard it too, but have not found a "too polished" point. Sporty has some strong opinions backed by results that sub-micron polish is not "too polished".

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Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:53 pm
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:welcome: chief!
chief33 wrote:
Has anybody here used Derby Dust, and if so what are you opinions on it?
Haven't tried yet - sorry. :|
chief33 wrote:
Also, I heard someone say you can actually polish your axles to much, using to high of grit to polish with.
This topic discusses "polishing too much" in terms of removing too much material. Is your question to imply that the axle can be too smooth? Tons of posts on DT about fine polishing (here's one). In my experience with kid's racing there seems to be a limit to how much polishing kids want to do. Sporty has had success down to 0.03 micron polish.


Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:57 pm
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Master Pine Head
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I have run some tests on Derby Dust and I will preface my comments with this: I did not run the car through the Derby Dust recommended break-in procedure (http://www.derbydust.com/breakin.html). I prepared the wheels and axles as I usually do and applied and broke-in the graphite as I usually do with graphite. My processes are nowhere near what Sporty does, but have done me well in the past.

The results were that Derby Dust performed about the same as graphite lubricants available at Scout stores and shops that sell pinewood derby accessories.

On my to-do list is to run a car through the recommended break-in and see if the results are comparable to what Derby Dust claims.


Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:20 pm
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Thanks for the kind words.


I haver a sample, but am no longer doing anything with cars these days. Sold my track and timer.

So i can not do any testing.

Thanks for the kind words.

Over the years, though I have tried many products and many different ways. We did not come to our improvements easily and when I felt results worked well and above. I shared them here.


The only thing I can say, with all the products I have tried in the past, in regards to graphite. Is with adding allot more graphite, the cars started off slower and lasted longer.

But in reality, you are just adding more product. to have a faster car at the end of the race, if its a long race event.

Over time, I found ways, to not do this, and still have a fast car from the start and not slow much for many runs. But no matter what graphite product I used, there was always a point when the car slowed.

I still feel, that sub micron on the wheel bore and axles for graphite racing is the way to go. Oils are different, but there is also different processes in that area also.

The biggest factor, is what one or others feel is fast !!!! pack and district and then council level are all different levels of compition. And adult racing is another level all together. Race formats all factor into a cars build, per the rules of that race.

Different tracks play a factor also. and set up and tuning.

So this does not give the answer to this product, but all these factors are related to the product and any product in relationship to friction from a pine wood derby car stand point.

The very end of it all, comes down to you and the child. if you are happy and feel it works for you. Then you are just that happy with it.

In hind sight, over packing and over filling in the older style wheels at times, was not a bad thing, bigger wheel bores. The newer wheels are a bit different and I feel it's less effective.

With rail riding more common and more effective for racing. To tight of a bore slows you down. If a packing and paste method can hold its shape and form and provide a proper gap clearance and maintain it through out the race and have reduced friction over other methods. It's certainly something to test and look at.

But I'm not so sure that's gonna be a easy one to do or hold up thru a race.


Sporty


Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:18 am
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Stan Pope wrote:

On the question of "too polished"... I've heard it too, but have not found a "too polished" point. Sporty has some strong opinions backed by results that sub-micron polish is not "too polished".


I have heard that.. "too polished".. Is at the point where the axel diameter
is reduced in size from where the builder wants it.
Same holds true for wheel bore polishing when you increase the bore diameter.

:unsure: Douse this sound right guy's ?

:welcome: Chief33.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:43 pm
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whodathunkit wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:

On the question of "too polished"... I've heard it too, but have not found a "too polished" point. Sporty has some strong opinions backed by results that sub-micron polish is not "too polished".


I have heard that.. "too polished".. Is at the point where the axel diameter
is reduced in size from where the builder wants it.
Same holds true for wheel bore polishing when you increase the bore diameter.

:unsure: Douse this sound right guy's ?

:welcome: Chief33.

That would certainly be a case of "too polished," but I understood that "the surface smoothness for optimum graphite performance" was rougher than "the surface smoothness for optimum oil performance."

Once an axle's surface reaches 1 micron in variation, reducing the variation to 1/2 micron requires only removal of 1/2 micron of radius. In other words, going from "optimally polished" to "too polished" does not alter axle diameter appreciably.

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Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:58 pm
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Good point! Stan, Good point!

You have always been a stright shooter.. And a smoke'n gun! 8)

Whoda.

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Follow your passion as long as you live, and on this you will reach success.


Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:14 pm
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whodathunkit wrote:
...
Same holds true for wheel bore polishing when you increase the bore diameter.

The effect of increasing the bore diameter is different than decreasing the axle diameter, since increasing the bore diameter increases the leverage with which the friction acts. Otherwise, my comments about the axle polishing also hold for bore polishing.

Sorry, I should have included this in my initial response ... just read through your post too quickly and missed the whole sentence!

Age and diminishing eyesight have their drawbacks. :(

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Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:11 am
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Stan Pope wrote:


Age and diminishing eyesight have their drawbacks. :(


THANK YOU STAN POPE.

:offtopic:

Tell me about it! So douse learning the computer and how not to post photo's
on derby talk.

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The future is not just some place you are going to,
but is a place you are creating, and the paths to it are not found, they are made.
Follow your passion as long as you live, and on this you will reach success.


Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:29 pm
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whodathunkit wrote:
So douse learning the computer and how not to post photo's
on derby talk.

Fortunately, I started learning the computers more than 50 years ago ... when they were full of relays and vacuum tubes. And when you needed to "know somebody" to get to see 'em!

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Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:33 pm
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Pine Head
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In the FWIW Category, I also was intrigued by Derby Dust, and ordered a sample. I haven't used it in actual race conditions, but I did notice that the website does say words to the effect that Derby Dust is really helpful when you may not have the skills to bring your axles and wheels to the level needed to compete with the fastest cars.

I took a polished axle and wheel set and removed as much graphite as I could with cloth and pipecleaner, and lubed with Derby Dust. I know spin time is not directly indicative of performance under load, but I it's the only test I really have time to conduct, and I got a 28 second spin on average. My fully prepped wheels usually get about 32-33 seconds.

I then took an unused, unprepped axle and wheel out of one of last year's boxes. The Nail was the standard BSA variety, flashing still at the head, bumps on the shaft near the head. I spun it and got about 14 seconds. Then I added Derby Dust and worked it in. I spun the wheel several times and average about 28 seconds. I left the wheel and came back a week later, and the spins ran around 27 seconds.

It appears the Derby Dust is fairly 'clingy' and that as a result, if you thoroughly coat wheel hub and axle, it does a lot to make up for lack of polishing. This might suggest that Derby Dust can probably take a poor performer and make up for a lot of missing knowledge & elbow grease, but my thought is that it doesn't seem likely to provide a boost for a high skills builder.


Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:01 pm
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Curse You Red Baron! wrote:
I spun it and got about 14 seconds. Then I added Derby Dust and worked it in. I spun the wheel several times and average about 28 seconds.
Good feedback CYRB. My immediate thought was that perhaps another brand of graphite / lube might provide the same level of improvement on "raw" wheels and axles. Perhaps you could repeat the "raw" experiment using a different brand of lube to affirm if DD shows some benefit over other brands?


Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:08 pm
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Master Pine Head
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This is GREAT and I would like to be involved. I have built a car this year, after 27 years of racing, that is the fastest car I have ever built. I have wheels that were prepared by someone we all know (OK, it's SPORTY) and I use Max V's 4094 axles and have done nothing but polish them. Prior to this I used Hodges products. I have run this car against the timer in the same lane on my track against cars that have won races in 2 different Districts and have beat them, but sometimes by only thousandth's of a second. What do I do? If I pull the wheels, clean them out, clean the axles of graphite, put in this Derby Dust and reassemble them, I have now changed the cars set up no matter how hard I try to keep it the same. Unless there would be a drastic difference I would prove nothing. OK Gentlemen, I've got lots of time. Tell me what to do. Do I just pull the DFW and change the lube on that, or just pull the rear wheels and change the lube on those wheels and axles. I'll try anything. What would you like to see done? I'm all for going faster if I can.


Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:29 pm
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Speedster wrote:
This is GREAT and I would like to be involved. I have built a car this year, after 27 years of racing, that is the fastest car I have ever built. I have wheels that were prepared by someone we all know (OK, it's SPORTY) and I use Max V's 4094 axles and have done nothing but polish them. Prior to this I used Hodges products. I have run this car against the timer in the same lane on my track against cars that have won races in 2 different Districts and have beat them, but sometimes by only thousandth's of a second. What do I do? If I pull the wheels, clean them out, clean the axles of graphite, put in this Derby Dust and reassemble them, I have now changed the cars set up no matter how hard I try to keep it the same. Unless there would be a drastic difference I would prove nothing. OK Gentlemen, I've got lots of time. Tell me what to do. Do I just pull the DFW and change the lube on that, or just pull the rear wheels and change the lube on those wheels and axles. I'll try anything. What would you like to see done? I'm all for going faster if I can.


Hay anytime, after 27 years of building, you go faster awesome.

Regardless if you try Derbydust or not.


Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:44 pm
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