Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

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Oddzilla
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Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Oddzilla »

Over the last couple of years, I've worked with a few of the new scouts and parents in coming up with ideas for their pinewood derby cars.

As I'm sure we've all found out even from when we were newbies, sometimes you just don't know where to start or what to do. There are a tons of resources out there, but some parents just need to have something basic and simple to start off with for working with their kids.

When I first got into it, a friend of mine gave me a copy of his old Hodges manual that he's had forever. It helped me get my feet wet with weighting the care and a few other things. But over the years, and even with my limited experience and knowledge, I've come to the conclusion that while the manual has a good design to start off with, it can be improved upon slightly but still maintain some simplicity so that parents can get a good feel for their first time making one with their scout.

Plus, the information in the manual is from a time when wooden tracks were the norm and crazy designs and weight concepts weren't a widespread thing. So what I've done is made some diagrams for scouts and their parents so that they can get a decent start.

From the manual, I used the exact measurements and came up with the first model of what is made directly from the instructions. I'm also using the stock wheelbase and least expensive weighting material (lead wire) as possible to make it as affordable and simeple for them as possible. Let's face it, not alot of parents are going to know everything right off the bat about axle holes, changing wheelbase, tungsten, etc. Tiger cub races are their introduction to it. Save the craziness for later, I say.

Image

Looking at it now, it's way too big of a body for a basic wedge. Plus, using the measurements from the manual, the placement of the holes for lead wire is too high and not centered around the rear axle enough. So needless to say, scouts won't get as much potential out of their car with it, in my opinion. I think the first car we made like this also had a balance point about an inch and a quarter in front of the rear axle and we were able to get about 2 1/2 ounes of lead wire into it. Ran decent, though.

Now, what I did was take this concept and redid the diagram to reduce as much wood as possible and centered the weight placement on the rear axle while moving it as far down in the body as possible. Still kept the wedge shape as they can shape it anyway they want after looking at the diagram. And instead of measuring from the back of the block, I measured form the middle of the axle to try and keep the weight as centered around it as possible. Still using the same measurements for the weight holes just positioned better.

Image

With this, I made up a basic wedge as a test and it'll take almost 3 ounces of lead wire and the balance point is around 15/16" to an inch in front of the rear axle.

The latest incarnation is the exact same wedge but with the placement of the weight holes slightly modified.

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Again, all of this based on a stock block from the kit so it's all centered around the axle slot. With this one, I've moved the rear weight hole halfway between the back of the block and the rear axel. Middle weight hole is moved the exact same distance but in front of the rear axel. Front weight hole is still in the same position with the basic Hodges style hole placement by using the updated placement. So this way the exact same amount of weight can be added as it's only the placement of the holes that have changed.

With this placement, the balance point has move to between 5/8" and 3/4" in front of the rear axle.

Now I know that common thought is to get the most weight around the rear axle as possible. But I'm shooting for the scouts and parents who have never done it before in their lives. They don't know anything about all the extra designs and physics that go into it. If I can get them a good starter design, they can modify it as they please. It's all about learning, right? Gotta start somewhere. Axle and wheel prep will be a big factor, too. I've seen some cars with 3 ounces added beat cars with 4 ounces added simple because they prepped their axles and wheels better.

And I know there will always be the parents who will be better than others, whether it's their first time or fourth. Never going to be able to account for all of them that either build their kids car, buy aftermarket wheels and axles or get tips and help from their more experienced friends. not to mention the scouts that understand the build process better than others.

Not every scout and parent will have that luxury. I know single moms who help their kids who have had no clue what to do. Cars that get messed up a couple of times. Run out of time or have parental excuses as to why they didn't get to work with their kids enough on it. Like I said, my goal is help the ones who don't have a clue or those other resources or just want to do something simple with their kids and get involved. And it doesn't get much simpler than one cut and three drilled holes. Doesn't take into account raised wheels, rail riding, tungsten weight or anything like that. Just something to get a scout started into it.

If I can get some of them interested without them feeling intimidated by it, they can move on to bigger and better things. Getting their feet wet and helping the kids have some feeling of accomplishment is a big start.

Maybe a bit corny and I'm sure I've probably over-simplified on it, but I remember when I was clueless and someone helped me with something simple. I've built on that and helped my kids build bigger and better. Everyone needs a start, right? Provide them with something like this and if they choose to use it, great, and if they there are some that want something more there's alot available out there.

And as long as they are competitive most of these little guys are happy and so are the parents. Some will always be better than others, but doing their best still needs a basic foundation to start on. And I am by no means an expert and I still get confused with half the things that is talked about on here. I'm good at the basics, though, and my kids, scouts in my den and I are learning as we go. So why not spread that along so others can build on it, too. :D
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whodathunkit
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by whodathunkit »

Oddzilla,

Wow! this is a good basic template.

For new scouts and parents
I would have them drill some weight pocket holes to the bottom of the car as well.
This way there is some way to have an adjustable weight system if necessary
to bring the weight of the car up to exactly five ounces on race day. ;)
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Oddzilla »

We have a Best Track, so with the way the lanes are designed, we can glue coins to the bottom of the cars in the middle of the bodies and it doesn't interfere. we go through alot of dimes at final weigh in.

:)

Plus, on impound day, we've always got parents who bring toold and drills to assist if they need to or want to do that. Lots of forstner bits just in case.

But I'm always open to suggesstions. Since I've never had to drill out the bottom to add weight other than using coins, where on the bottom and what size would work good? I'll add some to the layout and post for opinions.

:D
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FatSebastian
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by FatSebastian »

Oddzilla wrote:we can glue coins to the bottom of the cars in the middle of the bodies and it doesn't interfere. we go through alot of dimes at final weigh in. :)
I wonder if this may be another teaching opportunity for the newbie target audience.

I agree with Whoda that a compartment in which to place incremental weight would be preferable; otherwise the benefit of added ballast will not be as great as it could / should be. Area, mass, and shape all work together to slow down or speed up a moving object through air. The mass divided by the frontal area and multiplied by a shape factor (called the drag coefficient, CDrag) has a special name – the ballistic coefficient = CDrag x mass / Area. To minimize deceleration due to air drag, the ballistic coefficient should be maximized. This is done by increasing mass and decreasing frontal area and drag coefficient.

When fastening a coin to the bottom of a body, not only does the mass increase, but the area and drag coefficient also increase. Often, the slight increase in mass is offset by slight increases in the area and shape factor, with the result having very marginal benefit at best. For example, a US dime adds 2.268 grams (increasing body weight by 1.6%), but it also adds 0.241785 square centimeters area (increasing frontal area of a 5/8" high wedge, including wheels, by 1.9%). Now, because the total area increased more than the total mass (as a percentage), the ballistic coefficient decreased instead of increasing (assuming I didn't make a math mistake). The drag coefficient almost certainly increased too, since the addition of the dime makes the bottom less streamlined. So unless the ballast fastened to the outside bottom is rather dense (e.g., lead or tungsten plating), a net aerodynamic penalty is incurred. Also, adding weight to the center likely shifts the total center of mass forward, so there is no apparent speed advantage from the added weight increasing the available potential energy to be converted into kinetic energy.

Consider, for example, Jobe's Lecture 1b, where he concludes that adding minute amounts of weight is on the same order of importance as other performance factors, including streamlining. It would therefore be an interesting experiment to build a car according to the template, and then compare the performance of the car both with and without a dime glued onto the center bottom.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Speedster »

Thank you for this information to help the newcomer. Thanks to FS for mentioning the weight of a dime. For the past 27 years I have watched folks drill, drill, drill to get their weight down or struggle to find something to bring the weight up. We are not allowed to tape something to the car or put anything on the bottom. This brings me to a simple scale using quarters and other coins. Can this scale be built cheap without the use of tools so anyone can do it? We could then show how to build the scale, list the weight of each coin in ounces and grams and then put it in an appropriate topic. I can build a scale but I can't figure out how to do it without using every tool I own. I also tend to over engineer everything so I'm sure others have much better ideas.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by FatSebastian »

Speedster wrote:This brings me to a simple scale using quarters and other coins. Can this scale be built cheap without the use of tools so anyone can do it?
Again I defer to Doc Jobe. He suggests creating a simple yardstick balance.

Image

Balance the stick at the 18" mark on a fulcrum on some type, then center 25 US quarters on the 34" mark and center the car on the 2" mark (or vice versa). When the finished car elevates the quarters, it is too heavy. No tools are required.

(Personally, we preferred to put the $6.25 in change toward a precise digital scale, which can often be found on sale for less than double that.)
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Speedster »

Thanks FS. I will pass that on at the next Clinic.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by whodathunkit »

I'm like FS, I would get that scale also!

FS, could one end of the yard stick be heaver?
And that you would need something to trim the balance of the yard stick also.
It seems like he used 7 flat toothpicks that were approx 0.06 grams to the light end until the
yardstick shown a large preference for tilting to one side or the other.

You diden't say any thing about trimming the balance point. ;)
Thanks FS.

Mark.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by FatSebastian »

whodathunkit wrote:FS, could one end of the yard stick be heaver?
It could, in which case the yardstick would not balance at exactly 18". One would therefore offset the balance point and equivalently offset placement of the car and weights. But at that level, one should also be concerned about center of mass of the car in 3 dimensions and the exact placement of the coins, etc.

I am not sure that the graduations of the average yardstick are terribly accurate anyway; if people need to go to some trouble to get a premium yardstick for the purpose of making a balance for PWD (which I believe Jobe also recommends), then I would rather steer them toward a cheap electronic scale.
whodathunkit wrote:You didn't say any thing about trimming the balance point.
That's because I did not consider a yardstick balance method to be precise, and recommended getting an inexpensive digital scale instead. ;)

However, a yardstick balance -- even without trimming -- helps address Speedster's concerns about folks excessively drilling to get their weight down or strugglng to find something to bring the weight up, because the weight should be very close to target.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Speedster »

Thanks FS. Your last line says it all. Thanks Mark for your input. You've both given me a fun summer project. Yardsticks are so inexpensive I'm going to supply them to anyone in our pack that wants one along with a little stand. If I cut a small notch in the yardstick it will stay at the 18" point. I'll mark on the ruler where the quarters go. Most derby cars with someone needing a scale usually have a flat bottom so I should be able to mark where the car should be placed. I can then trim the ruler using one of my cars. If this saves anyone from one trip to the Post Office it'll be worth it. Thanks again. I'm open to all suggestions.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Oddzilla »

Cool! Well give me some suggesstions to add to it. I want something that is simple for someone who has never done it before, as I said,

Explaining it is simple enough. Most people will get the concept but I want to do it in a way that is understandable and easy.

Like I said, in our pack adding a coin on the bottom is easy and has been done since we got the new track, but I'm all for making it generic so if they go to Districts it won't be an issue.

Thanks again guys! Interesting discussions are beign raised.

:D
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by FatSebastian »

Oddzilla wrote:Cool! Well give me some suggesstions to add to it. I want something that is simple for someone who has never done it before, as I said,
If you want to stick to coinage as trim weight, there's not much difference in weight between a dime and a penny; a zinc penny is cheaper and heavier, plus a penny is also a nice 3/4" diameter. A copper penny (pre-1982) is heavier still, so that adds flexibility. I might recommend using a 3/4" spade bit to hollow out a recessed penny compartment on the bottom, because pennies and spade bits are easy to come by, EXCEPT most spade bits will include a point that is ~1/2" high and therefore there is a risk that the bit point will poke out a hole at the top of the wedge.

As you are not afraid of using lead, another suggestion for trim weight might be Pb round split shot fishing sinkers. It is fairly common (compared to say, lead wire) and comes in different dimensions; I am looking at some size 5 shot right now, which can be held in a 9/32" diameter hole and each piece weighs 0.061 ounces (1.74 grams), a bit less than the dimes you are currently using. Looks like there might be more than one place on the wedge in which to drill a channel for shot sinkers.

At the same time, if people are careful about following your template, I wonder if they would have need of any trim weight; lead wire provides so much adjustability.
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Oddzilla »

Cool. I'll look into that.

As long as they can compete well, I'm happy. There will always be the few you'll never beat. I've seen it in the past and I'm sure we all have.

You have the kids who will always do a better job than others either by experience of their own or by others. Than there are the ones who's going to win at all costs. it happens. fact of life in Cub Scouts. Can't deny it.

I want the ones who never done it before to walk away knowing that they did something good with their kids and did it well enough that they will be excited to do it again the next year. As much as I would like someone to win (and yes, I'd love for my kid to win, too) and even do a good enough job to beat my scout fair and square I want the scouts to feel that they accomplished something without having to buy their way to a victory.

Have a good base to start with, do it well and feel good about it regardless if they win. That's what we're looking for these kids to learn, right?
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by Oddzilla »

Played around with a 3/4 recession centered over the rear axle. Can really only go in about 1/16" of in inch or it may cut into the weight holes drilled from the side.

I wonder if it would be better to drill a hole centered on the rear axle using the same bit as the weight holes. Go in about a 1/4". It won't interefere with the axles or other weight holes and won't come out the top.

That way putty or even BB's glued in would help add final weight and would be recessed.

BB's are cheap and readily available and we use those quite often when a car body has holes drilled from underneath. Can even fine tune the weight a bit more that way than with a coin (which is great for when there isn't a recession under the car).

Figure just line it up right in the middle of the axle and drill it before working on the rest of the car. Figure have it the first step before pre-inserting the axles into the slots (which I always do in case the body is pretty thin after cutting and sanding, helps me get them in easier on final assembly ; I'm sure that's a common step, though).
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Re: Basic starter template for new scouts and parents

Post by whodathunkit »

Oddzilla wrote: I wonder if it would be better to drill a hole centered on the rear axle using the same bit as the weight holes. Go in about a 1/4". It won't interefere with the axles or other weight holes and won't come out the top.

That way putty or even BB's glued in would help add final weight and would be recessed.

BB's are cheap and readily available and we use those quite often when a car body has holes drilled from underneath. Can even fine tune the weight a bit more that way than with a coin (which is great for when there isn't a recession under the car).
If the car is close to the target weight and your looking for just a few grams of weight.
BB'S are good to use to get it to the target weight.
If you drill several holes centerd in between the larger holes on the bottom of the car.
Most BB gun BB's take an 11/64" drill bit and you wouldent have to drill as deep as say 3/16" to an 1/8" deep.
The good part is if your holes are drilled good the bb's will just pop right in (with out glue) to help hold them in.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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