BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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whodathunkit
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by whodathunkit »

Ok, now that we are back on topic..
How many of you seen the IMPORTANT part listed:(?)
On the a Cub Scout/Parent Project Kit No. 17006 (Rules in the kit box)

Where the Race Committee should decide on the rules & race procedures, then have them printed
and distributed to all participants at least two weeks before the race.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by FatSebastian »

xanthrum wrote:the rules for the Mid America Derby can be found here... https://sites.google.com/site/midamericaderby/rules I would be very interested to hear your feed back.
Great! May I suggest that you create a new, separate topic under, say, the Planning, Preps & Running the Race forum?
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by FatSebastian »

Topspin.D wrote:My experience thus far is that oversized axles are faster and lead to fewer wiggles.
xanthrum wrote:I completely agree with you and that is absolutely my expierence as well.
There seems to be consensus that oversized axles provide measurable benefit. Tim's original question asks "how much advantage" under a certain racing scenario. Anybody have numbers that can be assigned to "faster"? (It is not clear from Tim's question whether he wants to use oversized axles, or he wants insight as to whether his competition is using them.)
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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Dr. John Jobe, Physics Lecture 3 - Experiments with Hodges' Nickel Plated Axles.
On an Incline Plane track with a 36' horizontal run, Hodges Nickel Plated axles will beat a zinc coated axle by a full car length.
You can read the whole complicated story about the test by going to Winderby.com and clicking on EDGE-ucation. Orrrrrr, you can wait for FS to make those magical blue letters appear and you can then simply click on the blue letters. I'd wait for FS. Lots less typing. Thank you, FS. You make it easy for us.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by Stan Pope »

FatSebastian wrote:I fear continuing rules discussions might be straying off the topic of oversized and/or plated axles. As it relates to answering Tim's original question and rules, I suspect that many people (including myself) are not experienced enough with oversized axles because of rules that require original kit components.
Hmmm... Would most such rules prohibit working BSA kit axles to increase their diameter without introducing "foreign material"? At least, would your rules do so?
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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Speedster wrote:If your rules allow I would definitely use them.
That's the problem: our rules do not allow any axles besides BSA axles, and after some conversations and brief inspection of one particular car, I strongly suspect that he is running something other than BSA axles, such as plated (or stainless) axles, and possibly over-sized plated (or stainless) axles.

Other than the appearance of the head of the axle, can anyone suggest any way to inspect a car for axle rule compliance?
Last edited by TimInOhio on Sat Nov 16, 2013 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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FatSebastian wrote:
Topspin.D wrote:My experience thus far is that oversized axles are faster and lead to fewer wiggles.
xanthrum wrote:I completely agree with you and that is absolutely my expierence as well.
There seems to be consensus that oversized axles provide measurable benefit. Tim's original question asks "how much advantage" under a certain racing scenario. Anybody have numbers that can be assigned to "faster"? (It is not clear from Tim's question whether he wants to use oversized axles, or he wants insight as to whether his competition is using them.)
Thank you, FS, for keeping this discussion going.

I've been reading DT for almost years and have learned a lot. I have stepped up and begun helping with my son's Cub Scout Pack Pinewood Derby, and even revived a long-dormant District level Pinewood Derby. My specific reason for asking the question is not that I would consider using non-BSA axles in a race that specifies BSA axles only, but there is one Scout/father team that I strongly suspect is using them. I was looking to quantify the approximate benefit that would be gained by this.

Thanks to all for the discussion.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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Speedster wrote:Dr. John Jobe, Physics Lecture 3 - Experiments with Hodges' Nickel Plated Axles.
On an Incline Plane track with a 36' horizontal run, Hodges Nickel Plated axles will beat a zinc coated axle by a full car length.
You can read the whole complicated story about the test by going to Winderby.com and clicking on EDGE-ucation. Orrrrrr, you can wait for FS to make those magical blue letters appear and you can then simply click on the blue letters. I'd wait for FS. Lots less typing. Thank you, FS. You make it easy for us.
Thank you, Speedster, for doing to research and tracking this all down for me. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for, and personally it was roughly what I expected. Thanks again.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

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We must use the axle slots and the slots and axles must be visible. Our rules do not forbid paint on the axle head. That could be a problem although I've never had it yet. A nickel plated axle and stainless steel axle will be much more shiny then a zinc plated axle. If your inspector keeps a few stock BSA axles next to him at inspection time I think he will be able to spot illegal axles if he is looking for them. My guess would be if he is going to cheat with axles he's also going to try to cheat on wheels. Look for 1.8 gram wheels, using oil when Graphite Only is allowed, outer step that has been removed if not allowed. Set 2 or 3 scales, along with a 5 ounce weight and the scales calibration weights in front of the inspector. Also, place a digital caliper, a 1.8 gram wheel, a set of stainless steel axles, a set of nickel plated axles in front of the inspector. Troy Thornes's new book and Doc Jobe's Big Green book is also a nice touch. This will intimidate the cheater and all the legal racers will enjoy looking at your display. You're going to do fine, Fellow Buckeye.
Best of Luck to you.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by whodathunkit »

TimInOhio wrote: using graphite only, how much advantage would be gained by using either plated (i.e. nickel-plated) or both plated and over-sized axles, as compared to using BSA axles, even if they were polished and prepped?
Tim,
Sorry I can't help you out with how much advantage would be gained..
But when thinking of nickel and polishing it out it takes a high polish compared to different metals.
The nickel plating provides a harder suface that polishes out better then the stock BSA axle.
And the harder surface of the nickel helps to reduce the C.O.F.
Graphite to a hard smooth polished nickel surface is like it's B.F.F.

Where the graphite to semi smooth polished surface as compared to a prepped & polished BSA axle...
That would tend to take on more scratches over time from the graphite.

Is what I would look for to compare the axles to..
after they were polished and prepped side by side to look at & after test runs were done.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by bracketracer »

TimInOhio wrote:
Speedster wrote:If your rules allow I would definitely use them.
That's the problem: our rules do not allow any axles besides BSA axles, and after some conversations and brief inspection of one particular car, I strongly suspect that he is running something other than BSA axles, such as plated (or stainless) axles, and possibly over-sized plated (or stainless) axles.

Other than the appearance of the head of the axle, can anyone suggest any way to inspect a car for axle rule compliance?
If you suspect he's running oversize axles I would think a dial caliper would answer your question. Aftermarket axles are anywhere from .091-.094" in diameter. So if theirs are in that neighborhood then your concerns might be justified.

I wouldn't judge them solely by the appearance of the head, I have heard tell of unscrupulous racers zinc plating the heads of stainless axles to give the appearance of the BSA stockers. Diameter would be a sure way to tell.

My gut feeling is that plating alone would not provide a measurable benefit but the larger diameter would.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by Speedster »

bracketracer, Doc Jobe claims Hodges Nickel plated axles will give a car length advantage.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by Stan Pope »

bracketracer wrote:Diameter would be a sure way to tell.
Without an (undesirable) teardown rule, slipping a usual caliper on the axle would not be possible. However, a pair of thin GO/NOGO diameter gages that would slip between hub and car body would tell the tale.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by Speedster »

I love the idea of that gauge and would like to buy one professionally made.
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Re: BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

Post by Stan Pope »

Speedster wrote:I love the idea of that gauge and would like to buy one professionally made.
Probably have to "roll your own" out of, maybe, 3/128" sheet ... maybe even 1/64" sheet. Need to be able to slip inside a pretty tight gap! Being that thin, its use might require a delicate hand. However, the wrench that I made for twisting axles was about 3/128" thick, and was plenty strong enough to do the job! So, perhaps the only "delicate hand" needed is to avoid scratching the hub or car body!

The method I used for the "wrench" was to chuck a Dremel grinding disk + mandrel in my lathe, lock the wrench stock in my tool post, and advance the wrench stock against the spinning grinding disk. Only needed a lathe to do this cuz my hands aren't steady enough to take just a few thousandths off at a time! :( You youngsters could probably do it "freehand." :)
Stan
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