BSA axles vs. plated oversized axles?

[Speedster]

TiminOhio is trying to determine if an axle is illegal under their rules. If they do not have a rule that axles must be visible and the slots are filled with Bondo then all the inspector is able to inspect is the axle head. If the head is painted it will distort the dome and even a shine will be hidden. All axles do not show the same shine after polishing which might give a hint on an illegal axle. If a sharpie mark appears on an axle, or axles, it is to adjust camber and toe. Since a bent axle is illegal under our rules, and since I am the sole inspector at our Pack, I would jump up on the table and scream "CHEATER, CHEATER !!!. THE GUY IN THE RED HAT IS A CHEATER !!!!" That should straighten him out for the next year competition. OK, That was kind of fun. Actually, what I would really do, as long as his wheels were not super canted, is have him remove the marks with alcohol and a Q-tip which we have on the repair table. I suppose I didn't really have to say No Paint on the axle because the rules already say "The axles and slots must be entirely visible". With all the different colors of wheels, and things children like to do, I thought saying no paint on the axles might just save a lot of problems at Inspection time. Allowing canted wheels was one of the things I was unable to get for the scouts at the Nov 17th meeting.
Max-V's stainless axles should be here on Monday the 25th and I will be able to complete the Axle Comparison chart. We'll see if that can help us in anyway to determine if an axle is illegal under a particular set of rules.

[Topspin.D]

Personally, I think we're all over thinking this. Micrometers... magnets.... plating color....

Just make a rule that says "nail type axels" required and leave it at that.

I know that I don't want to do a tear down of some kids car to see if his axel diameter is too big or if it has grooves. For every 1 kid we catch, we'll mess up the hard work of 10 who haven't cheated in any way (at least not intentionally). Also, what about situations with parents that get "too into it" and swap out components without discussing this with kids... do you really want to expose dad as a cheater to the kid in front of all his friends?!?

Just go with a rule set that you can actually enforce without going overboard.

[Speedster]

We would never, ever , tear down a car. I also would not discuss an illegal car in front of anyone except the adult involved. I suspect no one else would either.
We're doing this sanding, polishing, measuring, looking through a magnifying glass and comparing because we're Derby Talk. This is simply a fun experience to see what can be learned. Anyone can take, or leave, anything they read.
Best,
Bill

[TimInOhio]

I'd like to clarify something. On November 16 I stated we do not have a rule regarding paint on the axle. On November 18 I stated we are not allowed paint on the axle. On November 17 there was a PWD District meeting with the new District Executive and the new leader of the District PWD. "No paint on axle" was added to our rules.

Forgive me for going Off Topic but I was also successful in getting rid of the "All four wheels must be on the ground at all times" rule. Life is Good.

Our District had not had a District Pinewood Derby in recent memory (in fact, no one could remember when the last one was), and I was able to get the backing of my Pack Committee and our District exec to hold one 2 years ago, but we did not have a rule pertaining to paint on the axle. Unfortunately, last year, we did not get enough interest to hold the District Pinewood Derby. I am envious (LOL) that you have the support and participation to have a District level event.

Getting rid of the "four wheels on the ground" rule is a step in the right direction. Our Pack has always had that rule, and that's the way it always was, so it was hard to change. But, after 4 years, we got it changed. We're looking forward to racing without that rule this year!

[TimInOhio]

TiminOhio is trying to determine if an axle is illegal under their rules. If they do not have a rule that axles must be visible and the slots are filled with Bondo then all the inspector is able to inspect is the axle head. If the head is painted it will distort the dome and even a shine will be hidden. All axles do not show the same shine after polishing which might give a hint on an illegal axle. If a sharpie mark appears on an axle, or axles, it is to adjust camber and toe. Since a bent axle is illegal under our rules, and since I am the sole inspector at our Pack, I would jump up on the table and scream "CHEATER, CHEATER !!!. THE GUY IN THE RED HAT IS A CHEATER !!!!" That should straighten him out for the next year competition. OK, That was kind of fun. Actually, what I would really do, as long as his wheels were not super canted, is have him remove the marks with alcohol and a Q-tip which we have on the repair table. I suppose I didn't really have to say No Paint on the axle because the rules already say "The axles and slots must be entirely visible". With all the different colors of wheels, and things children like to do, I thought saying no paint on the axles might just save a lot of problems at Inspection time. Allowing canted wheels was one of the things I was unable to get for the scouts at the Nov 17th meeting.
Max-V's stainless axles should be here on Monday the 25th and I will be able to complete the Axle Comparison chart. We'll see if that can help us in anyway to determine if an axle is illegal under a particular set of rules.

As an inspector in my Pack, I can so picture in my head doing this!!!

[TimInOhio]

We would never, ever , tear down a car. I also would not discuss an illegal car in front of anyone except the adult involved. I suspect no one else would either.

I think this is the route we are going to have to take, instead of potentially looking like sore sports (did I mention that this Scout's car has won the Pack Pinewood Derby 4 years running), and being on a witch-hunt.

We're doing this sanding, polishing, measuring, looking through a magnifying glass and comparing because we're Derby Talk. This is simply a fun experience to see what can be learned. Anyone can take, or leave, anything they read.
Best,
Bill

Thanks for putting it all back in perspective.

[FatSebastian]

If a sharpie mark appears on an axle, or axles, it is to adjust camber and toe. Since a bent axle is illegal under our rules...

Many axles come out of the box with a bit of natural bend. (We would still mark and rotate "unbent" axles to optimize the camber and toe.)

Unfortunately, last year, we did not get enough interest to hold the District Pinewood Derby.

This topic might be of interest...

[whodathunkit]

...a pair of thin GO/NOGO diameter gages that would slip between hub and car body would tell the tale.

Might one have to measure behind the nail head instead? Looking at MaxV's latest oversized axle offering, the diameter appears to step down at the car body.

I love the idea of that gauge and would like to buy one professionally made.

If a commercial gauge was available, then I suppose that someone would make an axle reduced to normal diameter behind the head too!

Outer hub face double step recess on the BSA out of the box kit wheels.
Outer hub shaver.. measureing behind the nail head instead..
is now useless as the nail head sits deeper into the outer hub.
Looks like Stan's way will tell the tale.

[Speedster]

The Max-V 4051 axle is so excellently machined it will measure .087 between the car body and wheel hub. If you're allowed to drill holes all that will be seen is the head of the nail. If you are required to use the slots and the nails must be visible and you are not allowed to use China axles, all you have to do is grind a chisel type end onto the 4051 axle. When you polish a BSA Made in USA nail, the head of the BSA and the head of the 4051 look alike. You can't measure the head so you will have to go on appearance. If you do not allow polishing the head of the nails I think then you will be able to recognize a non BSA Made in USA nail.

Inspectors are wonderful people. However, I think many are concerned with length, width, height, lube and weight and that's it. If a very experienced individual was determined to let no one race with an aftermarket axle he would probably catch a cheater but he would have to have a set of rules that would enable him to do so. Short of tearing a car apart, which we're not going to do, I think an experienced builder will be able to run with an axle Made in China, or a 4094 or 4051 axle. As I stare at the 8 axles in front of me, the only one that looks different is the unpolished, BSA Made in USA axle.