Axle Comparison

[Speedster]

I've taken 4 different axles and polished the heads and shafts with Brasso. Following is a short description of each axle.

1. Stock BSA - Made in USA. Casting marks on shaft and under head. I'll call the pointed end a chisel point. Shaft diameter varies a bit but generally 0.088. Head diameter 0.211. This nail head changes the most in appearance when polished.

2. Stock BSA-Made in China. One small ring around shaft near head. Shaft is round and smooth at point end. Shaft diameter is 0.087. Head diameter is 0.213

3. Maximum Velocity Axle # 4094. No casting marks on shaft or head. Top of head shows a small flat spot. Polishing with Brasso makes the flat spot nearly invisible. This axle gives the highest shine when polished. Chisel point. Shaft diameter is 0.087. Head diameter is 0.210.

4. Maximum Velocity Stainless Steel Axle #4051. No casting marks. Axle shaft is very smooth. Polishing with Brasso didn't seem to change the appearance. Shaft is 0.093 where wheel rides then drops to 0.087 to smooth round shaft at point. Head diameter is 0.208. Pointed end resembles the axle Made in China. If a few thousandths were taken off point the length of taper would match the China axle.

My opinion.
The heads of these 4 nails look very similar after polishing. The slightly smaller diameter on the Stainless axle head is not noticeable to me. The heads on the axle Made in China and the Stainless axle look the same in shine and color. Axle #4094 produces the highest shine.

If I were intent on the scouts using the USA made axle, the rules could read "Only BSA Made in USA axles may be used. Axle heads may not be polished" or words to that effect. That probably would give the best chance of no aftermarket axles. For some reason that particular axle changes appearance when polished.
I will try to send a picture FWIW. Nails are left to right, 1, 2, 3, 4. Maybe the appearance of Nail #1 will show the difference between polished and Not Polished.

[Speedster]

Axles are from left to right, 1, 2, 3, 4. Top row is unpolished.

[psycaz]

When we polish axles in our drill press, the polish runs down onto the heads. When you're using a cloth to remove the polish, we've always ended up touching the heads, hence polishing them.

I'm not sure how you would be able to rule out a product that carries the BSA logo on it, in regards to the Revell axles.

Just food for thought.

[Noskills]

Like the scientific method Bill!

Seth

[Speedster]

psycaz, the Boss can make any rule. Our District does not allow Revell pre-cut cars and it is specifically stated. That alone will stop most people.
If we are not allowed to polish axle heads we will have to live with it. The shaft can be polished while the nail is in a vise and a dremel tool is used. A piece of duct tape, trimmed with a razor blade, will also keep the compound off the head. A skilled builder will handle it and the unskilled builder will probably not bother with any polishing.
How about this? Buy a set of 4051 stainless steel axles, a $179.00 zinc plating kit from Caswell Company in New York, and zinc plate the heads of the 4051's and see how close they come to the stock BSA - Made in the USA. I wonder what they would look like?

[psycaz]

psycaz, the Boss can make any rule. Our District does not allow Revell pre-cut cars and it is specifically stated. That alone will stop most people.
If we are not allowed to polish axle heads we will have to live with it. The shaft can be polished while the nail is in a vise and a dremel tool is used. A piece of duct tape, trimmed with a razor blade, will also keep the compound off the head. A skilled builder will handle it and the unskilled builder will probably not bother with any polishing.
How about this? Buy a set of 4051 stainless steel axles, a $179.00 zinc plating kit from Caswell Company in New York, and zinc plate the heads of the 4051's and see how close they come to the stock BSA - Made in the USA. I wonder what they would look like?

You may wish to suggest the idea of taping the heads off be put into the rules so both sets of builders have a valid option at hand.

I do have to ask, your post seems slightly hostile. Are you taking issue with my replying?

I'm just relaying personal experience. My son polished his axles. Got polish on the heads. They shined up very nice. He liked the way it looked and did the rest the same way. Got to the race and was accused of cheating because the heads were shiny. I suggested they look in the bleeping slots we had to use, you can tell they're BSA axles. They weren't polished by the ends. Just a witch hunt. By one mother who's son never saw his car until the morning of the race. Freely admitted to as well. And someone there to help run the race and shouldn't have any say.

I just try to make sure folks remember they are boys who do work on their cars. Things happen by accident. Do you really want to dq a boy for polishing a head?

If the concern is there about illegal axle use, then just state in the rules "x top finishers will have cars tore down and inspected for illegal parts.

I mean, put an axle in your dremel and just hit it with cotton cloth by its self. It will start to polish.

[Speedster]

No psycaz, I'm not hostile. At least I hope I don't sound that way. I always think of what an unskilled builder goes through when working with his Grandma as the adult helper. I like to look for solutions. An example - I don't put the nail in a dremel, I put it in a vise and use the cotton wheel on the dremel to polish the nail. The head never becomes involved. A gentleman recently suggested the axle rule should be "Use a nail type axle" which obviously allows anyone to buy Max V's fancy new SS axle. Do you agree that's the way it should be? I disagree with the idea but I have no bad feelings for the man and I'm glad he's on Derby Talk. Here's a thought that will have hundreds, if not thousands, of people (probably very strongly) disagreeing with me. I really, really dislike any rules that will allow extended wheelbases and drilled axle holes. If there is any other rule that was ever made that gives a bigger advantage to a skilled builder and really hurts an unskilled builder, please tell me what it is. I'm going to get a response from saying that but I hope folks don't dislike me personally for expressing my opinion.
In the past 29 years that I have been involved with the scouts and the pinewood derby, I have never thought about tearing down a car. How could anyone tear down a car when it's on its way to a District race? Truthfully, I never knew this happened until I joined Derby Talk in Feb. of 2012.

Whenever I see a rule I ask, "Is this rule going to help the skilled builder and hurt the unskilled builder"? If the answer is Yes I think we should take another look at it. Many rules exist because "We've always had that rule". That's a poor reason to have a rule.

I apologize if I have ever offended anyone. It was never my intent. I may not always agree with you, and I'm sure there are those that don't agree with me, but I'm happy you are all on Derby Talk.
Peace,
Bill

[psycaz]

No problem. Just wanted to be sure. I can rub folks the wrong way.

I have dealt with my share of accusations of cheating/my son not building his car. I've seen my share of boys and parents forced to completely redo their cars on raceday because someone didn't like the way it was. Something that happened AFTER they checked in their cars days before. Seeing their faces as they're called out in front of everyone for cheating when the car was fine at check in. I watched in horror as a son and father we made to openly mangle their car on race day just because a rear axle was bent upwards slightly. A rear wasn't touching. Axles were epoxied in. Happened after they checked in before the epoxy set. Someone helping running the race took it upon themselves to reinspect every car. Got in the ear of the chair. Forced them to hammer on the car to lower the axle. Using a hammer. Epoxy held really well. This is all done AS THEY'RE PREPARING TO RUN THAT RANK! Another I'm in charge and its wrong. Fix it. Not my son that time. You passed it at inspection, you damaged it, and now you're checking cars again, done by someone who should have no say, as you're lining up the cars to put them on the track??? Yes, we did have a 4 touching rule, they did when the scout turned in the car.

How about just telling them its damaged and letting them decide to let it go or not. Nope, make it seem as if they did something wrong...

Enough of those bad memories...
So I always look at rules as enforceable or not. Things to make the seasoned and new builders alike. Like you, I like things that help everyone have a chance at winning. It's why I've run workshops for the past 5 years to make tools available to anyone interested.

I understand the thoughts on drilled holes. A simple solution might be to add to a rule that if you drill holes, you must drill a hole to allow the ends of the axles to be visible. That would let you see the chisel points. If you can drill the side hole, you can do the bottom.

[birddog]

These are great discussions. Of the two derby's I've run, I've only had to disqualify one boy. He showed up at inspection with last years car and our rules specifically state that you must build a new car each year and you cannot re-use previous year's cars.

The only way this was caught was that the Den leader had been trying to get that scout their car kit with no response. So when he checked in, the inspector knew that kid hadn't picked up his car kit and asked the boy if it was last year's car. He said it was and thus he was disqualified.

We've had no other issues in 2 years, but I suspect if you do this long enough, you'll run into anything.

My inspectors are not experienced. There is no way they will be able to find illegal axles. I give them test boxes to easily check car dimensions, wheel gauges to easily check for out of spec wheels, but I don't expect them to be able to catch illegal axles. If somebody uses them, they'll have that on their conscience.

Our rules state that we reserve the right to tear down a car after the race. This rule is there just to keep those who may consider cheating to think twice. I will never tear down a car, but I want them to think I would.

Our rules allow for holes to be drilled (we don't have to use slots) and the axles themselves do not need to be visible. I know this opens us up to folks who want to cheat to be able to get away with it, but hopefully they will think twice with the threat of a tear down.

Personally, I just don't understand the thinking of anyone who purposefully violates the rules. We do our best, but I'm not going to destroy a car in a post race inspection to find someone who may be cheating.

Birddog

[FatSebastian]

I have never thought about tearing down a car. How could anyone tear down a car when it's on its way to a District race?

As Birddog suggests, many rules threaten tear down with no intention of action.

Whenever I see a rule I ask, "Is this rule going to help the skilled builder and hurt the unskilled builder"? If the answer is Yes I think we should take another look at it.

I agree with this approach, although I'd worry that a rule like "Only BSA Made in USA axles" might raise questions because there is nothing directly on the axle as to its country of origin. Perhaps some "unskilled builders" not appreciating the intent might find it silly or legalistic to specify American-made nails... "it's just a nail". Or, there may be a presumption that all BSA axles are American made (BSA standing for Boy Scouts of America), including the Revell ones having a BSA hologram...

Which is to say, battles should be carefully picked when writing rules. The unskilled builders might interpret rules differently than the skilled, and subtle minutia ("fine print") can be missed by both the skilled and unskilled. As Darin often warns, rules should not impede "just building the car".

I just don't understand the thinking of anyone who purposefully violates the rules.

This subject could easily occupy its own separte topic. IMO, when someone cheats (or breaks the law in general), the perceived risk of penalty must seem low relative to the perceived rewards. (This is partly why parents discipline misbehaving children - to increase perceived risks.)

[TXDerbyDad]

No problem. Just wanted to be sure. I can rub folks the wrong way.

I have dealt with my share of accusations of cheating/my son not building his car. I've seen my share of boys and parents forced to completely redo their cars on raceday because someone didn't like the way it was. Something that happened AFTER they checked in their cars days before. Seeing their faces as they're called out in front of everyone for cheating when the car was fine at check in. I watched in horror as a son and father we made to openly mangle their car on race day just because a rear axle was bent upwards slightly. A rear wasn't touching. Axles were epoxied in. Happened after they checked in before the epoxy set. Someone helping running the race took it upon themselves to reinspect every car. Got in the ear of the chair. Forced them to hammer on the car to lower the axle. Using a hammer. Epoxy held really well. This is all done AS THEY'RE PREPARING TO RUN THAT RANK! Another I'm in charge and its wrong. Fix it. Not my son that time. You passed it at inspection, you damaged it, and now you're checking cars again, done by someone who should have no say, as you're lining up the cars to put them on the track??? Yes, we did have a 4 touching rule, they did when the scout turned in the car.

How about just telling them its damaged and letting them decide to let it go or not. Nope, make it seem as if they did something wrong...

Enough of those bad memories...
So I always look at rules as enforceable or not. Things to make the seasoned and new builders alike. Like you, I like things that help everyone have a chance at winning. It's why I've run workshops for the past 5 years to make tools available to anyone interested.

I understand the thoughts on drilled holes. A simple solution might be to add to a rule that if you drill holes, you must drill a hole to allow the ends of the axles to be visible. That would let you see the chisel points. If you can drill the side hole, you can do the bottom.

All I can say is that is one poorly run race. That's why we don't do ANY check-in until immediately before the race. We also NEVER call anyone out in front of the entire Pack. We find the parent and pull them and the boy aside privately and as subtly as possible to discuss. And that includes when we've had cars that obviously violated our rules or outright cheated. There is no point in publicly shaming the boys, especially over something so minor. And, in my opinion, once the car is inspected and checked-in, the onus on the car's condition is no longer on the boy; it's on the people who have/had custody of the car. If it had 4 on the floor when it was checked in, it's not the boys fault it no longer has it after it hasn't been in his care.

[TXDerbyDad]

These are great discussions. Of the two derby's I've run, I've only had to disqualify one boy. He showed up at inspection with last years car and our rules specifically state that you must build a new car each year and you cannot re-use previous year's cars.

The only way this was caught was that the Den leader had been trying to get that scout their car kit with no response. So when he checked in, the inspector knew that kid hadn't picked up his car kit and asked the boy if it was last year's car. He said it was and thus he was disqualified.

We've had no other issues in 2 years, but I suspect if you do this long enough, you'll run into anything.

That's rough, but we let people know up front that they must build a new car each year. I had to remind a new Cub at our November Pack Meeting about it when we gave out the cars.

My inspectors are not experienced. There is no way they will be able to find illegal axles. I give them test boxes to easily check car dimensions, wheel gauges to easily check for out of spec wheels, but I don't expect them to be able to catch illegal axles. If somebody uses them, they'll have that on their conscience.

Illegal axles are hard as heck to catch, for sure.

Our rules state that we reserve the right to tear down a car after the race. This rule is there just to keep those who may consider cheating to think twice. I will never tear down a car, but I want them to think I would.

I have that exact rule and the same philosophy. I hope I never have to use it.

Our rules allow for holes to be drilled (we don't have to use slots) and the axles themselves do not need to be visible. I know this opens us up to folks who want to cheat to be able to get away with it, but hopefully they will think twice with the threat of a tear down.

Our biggest issues have been non-Scout made cars bought off ebay. Otherwise, everything else goes well.

Personally, I just don't understand the thinking of anyone who purposefully violates the rules. We do our best, but I'm not going to destroy a car in a post race inspection to find someone who may be cheating.

Birddog

I have an idea of why the grandpa and his grandsons cheated in our last race. Having spent time with them, both could be easily described as behavioral issue kids. No strong father figure in their lives beyond grandpa, even though dad apparently is around, but was never active in their lives. One of them was in my Den, and the other was a year ahead, and his den met at the same time as we did, so I got to interact with him and lead their den a few times. To say that neither liked to lose would be an understatement. While doing our Volleyball belt loop, the older Scout had a literal hissy fit because he missed the ball. We're talking go to ground, rolling around, screaming and kicking fit. I told him he could act right or he could go home, and oddly enough he stopped immediately. But his little brother was similar and also heavily medicated.

Anyway, my guess is grandpa didn't want to have to deal with those issues, so he caved and bought their cars, even though we have multiple opportunities for everyone to build their own cars and get tips on building a winning car.

[TXDerbyDad]

I agree with this approach, although I'd worry that a rule like "Only BSA Made in USA axles" might raise questions because there is nothing directly on the axle as to its country of origin. Perhaps some "unskilled builders" not appreciating the intent might find it silly or legalistic to specify American-made nails... "it's just a nail". Or, there may be a presumption that all BSA axles are American made (BSA standing for Boy Scouts of America), including the Revell ones having a BSA hologram...

Which is to say, battles should be carefully picked when writing rules. The unskilled builders might interpret rules differently than the skilled, and subtle minutia ("fine print") can be missed by both the skilled and unskilled. As Darin often warns, rules should not impede "just building the car".

The bolded/red part is definitely sage advice. We don't get bogged down in minutia. Our rules simply state that the wheels and axles must be the ones that came in their official BSA kit. If they need new wheels or axles, they can be purchased from any of the local Scout shops and must say "Made in the USA." On our inspection sheet, which the racers don't see directly, it specifically mentions looking for things like 3-4 mold-matched wheels and if they are found, they are flagged.

[psycaz]

I agree with this approach, although I'd worry that a rule like "Only BSA Made in USA axles" might raise questions because there is nothing directly on the axle as to its country of origin. Perhaps some "unskilled builders" not appreciating the intent might find it silly or legalistic to specify American-made nails... "it's just a nail". Or, there may be a presumption that all BSA axles are American made (BSA standing for Boy Scouts of America), including the Revell ones having a BSA hologram...

Which is to say, battles should be carefully picked when writing rules. The unskilled builders might interpret rules differently than the skilled, and subtle minutia ("fine print") can be missed by both the skilled and unskilled. As Darin often warns, rules should not impede "just building the car".

The bolded/red part is definitely sage advice. We don't get bogged down in minutia. Our rules simply state that the wheels and axles must be the ones that came in their official BSA kit. If they need new wheels or axles, they can be purchased from any of the local Scout shops and must say "Made in the USA." On our inspection sheet, which the racers don't see directly, it specifically mentions looking for things like 3-4 mold-matched wheels and if they are found, they are flagged.

We couldn't do that here. The scout shops allow you to search the wheels if you wish, as long as you put everything back the way you found it. We asked last year and were told it happens all the time. No mess, no problem.

[TXDerbyDad]

The bolded/red part is definitely sage advice. We don't get bogged down in minutia. Our rules simply state that the wheels and axles must be the ones that came in their official BSA kit. If they need new wheels or axles, they can be purchased from any of the local Scout shops and must say "Made in the USA." On our inspection sheet, which the racers don't see directly, it specifically mentions looking for things like 3-4 mold-matched wheels and if they are found, they are flagged.

We couldn't do that here. The scout shops allow you to search the wheels if you wish, as long as you put everything back the way you found it. We asked last year and were told it happens all the time. No mess, no problem.

So you're saying the Scout Shop let's them open up the wheel tubes and mix & match? Wow!