Longer track
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- Apprentice
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Re: Longer track
So what your saying is make it a rail rider vs rail running? Hope I said that correctly.
- FatSebastian
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Re: Longer track
What is the difference between rail rider and rail runner in the context of this topic / question? (Did you mean straight runner?)Brian Clark wrote:...make it a rail rider vs rail running? Hope I said that correctly.
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- Apprentice
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Re: Longer track
I though riding was negative cant and running was positive cant on dfw.
Re: Longer track
No to this "I though riding was negative cant and running was positive cant on dfw."
Look at the picture at the bottom left with yellow cars and please ignore Caster for PWD. This should help with some terminology.
http://nordoniatireandservice.com/wheel_alignment.htm
Look at the picture at the bottom left with yellow cars and please ignore Caster for PWD. This should help with some terminology.
http://nordoniatireandservice.com/wheel_alignment.htm
- whodathunkit
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Re: Longer track
What changes might you guys try for a 63' S-shape track or a constant slope?
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
- FatSebastian
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Re: Longer track
I've heard some confusing terminology in the past, but this is news to me. Regardless, positive camber is recommended on the DFW.Brian Clark wrote:I though riding was negative cant and running was positive cant on dfw.
- Stan Pope
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Re: Longer track
For a constant slope track, my "intuitive reaction" is to push the CM forward until almost no DFW Toe-in is needed to keep it on the rail.whodathunkit wrote:What changes might you guys try for a 63' S-shape track or a constant slope?
For an S-shape track, it depends! The answer, I think, is in the details of the vicinity of the starting line. The key issue is the initial slope and the distance until the major downslope change starts. A configuration that I would try is forward weighting, one lifted rear wheel, and slight Toe-in on one front wheel.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
- Stan Pope
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Re: Longer track
Re "cant" and "camber" ...
"Camber" is a well defined term, but I haven't found a definition for "cant." From usage on this forum, I concluded that they have opposite sign, i.e. "positive cant" is the same as "negative camber." But, I don't use the term "cant" and I will readily accept documented correction!
"Camber" is a well defined term, but I haven't found a definition for "cant." From usage on this forum, I concluded that they have opposite sign, i.e. "positive cant" is the same as "negative camber." But, I don't use the term "cant" and I will readily accept documented correction!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
- LightninBoy
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Re: Longer track
Rail riding and rail running are synonymous in most pine heads minds. However, there are some in the PWD community who distinguish the two as follows:Brian Clark wrote:So what your saying is make it a rail rider vs rail running? Hope I said that correctly.
rail riding = achieving negative cant on the rear wheels by bending the axles
rail running = achieving negative cant on the rear wheels by drilling the axle holes at the desired angle.
I'm not sure why some feel the need to apply (and constantly reinforce) such unintuitive language, but I'm assuming there's some history and grievance involved.
In any event, in either case (rail riding or rail running) positive cant is recommended on the DFW.
- Stan Pope
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Re: Longer track
Well, not everyone uses 'cant = - camber"!
My understanding of both running and riding is that the critical factor is that the DFW is toed-in to keep the front of the car from drifting away from the rail i.e. to keep the car running straight. Yes, it is advantageous with most wheel styles to apply negative camber to the rear axles, but that is an efficiency consideration independent of the RR definition.
My understanding of both running and riding is that the critical factor is that the DFW is toed-in to keep the front of the car from drifting away from the rail i.e. to keep the car running straight. Yes, it is advantageous with most wheel styles to apply negative camber to the rear axles, but that is an efficiency consideration independent of the RR definition.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
- FatSebastian
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Re: Longer track
Thanks for the education. I suppose that such pedantry might be motivated by the reputed trademarking of the term rail-riding, and that Jay Wiles' original essay (which introduces the term rail-riding) mentions a slight bending of the rear axles?LightninBoy wrote:there are some in the PWD community who distinguish the two as follows...
...unless one considers Wiles' essay to encapsulate the definition of "rail-rider". Negative camber migrates the rear wheels away from the rail, which is an important operating feature behind the concept. Regardless, I do not plan to make a terminological distinction between "riding" and "running" so defined (probably by avoiding the term "running").Stan Pope wrote:that is an efficiency consideration independent of the RR definition
- Stan Pope
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Re: Longer track
Good analysis!FatSebastian wrote:... Regardless, I do not plan to make a terminological distinction between "riding" and "running" so defined (probably by avoiding the term "running").
Personally, I prefer the term "rail guiding". It is highly descriptive, and it avoids the "concept claim" for an idea that is old but kept "close to the vest" by most of those who "discover the secret'.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: Longer track
"cant" - Angular deviation from a vertical or horizontal plane.
"Camber" - is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle; specifically, it is the angle between the vertical axis of the wheels used for steering and the vertical axis of the vehicle when viewed from the front or rear.
I thought the word "cant" was used on Derby Talk because it's shorter to type.
"Camber" - is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle; specifically, it is the angle between the vertical axis of the wheels used for steering and the vertical axis of the vehicle when viewed from the front or rear.
I thought the word "cant" was used on Derby Talk because it's shorter to type.
- Stan Pope
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Re: Longer track
The problem with the dictionary definition is that it is unsigned, i.e. just some distance off vertical. Most usage on DT, when it was clear, showed a sign and it was opposite from camber!Speedster wrote:"cant" - Angular deviation from a vertical or horizontal plane.
"Camber" - is the angle made by the wheels of a vehicle; specifically, it is the angle between the vertical axis of the wheels used for steering and the vertical axis of the vehicle when viewed from the front or rear.
I thought the word "cant" was used on Derby Talk because it's shorter to type.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: Longer track
I know we're way Off Topic here but I don't understand what you just said. Can you say it another way or draw me a picture?