Revisiting bent rear axles

[Vitamin K]

No, wait, stop, don't go away! I'm not looking to re-ignite the debate!

So, from what I have gleaned, most of the momentum of current preferences in Derby-building has seemed to shift over in the direction of using straight rear axles with drilled cant. Of the people who do this, the overwhelming majority rely on using a drill press, plus a Jewke's Block (or Silver Bullet). And, from what I've seen, it works well.

That being true, here's the question that I want to explore: What are the tangible benefits to using drilled cant over bent axle cant? A lot of folks (especially on the league forums) will just say "drilled cant is always faster." or "never bend your rear axles!", but I'd kind of like to break it down a little more.

The benefits that I can see to drilled cant are as follows:

- Lengthy alignment tuning process is eliminated (assuming your setup is good enough to drill perfectly aligned axle holes)
- Alignment is 'permanent'. E.g., once you've got your rears drilled right, you don't have to worry about misalignment. (Though, your DFW wheel might still get tweaked out of place)

The drawbacks to drilled cant (that I can see) are as follows:

- Higher cost of equipment budget. You need a drill press (60+ bucks) and a Block/Silver Bullet (50 bucks once you figure shipping), so that's already over 100 bucks more to get started.
- "All or nothing" process. If you drill canted rear holes and they don't test correctly, you must restart the process, as there's no way to tune them with straight axles.

So, the first thing I'd like feedback on: Is there anything I'm overlooking regarding the pros and cons of drilled cant? That is, are there any other factors that would make drilled cant superior in terms of building a speedy car? Something to do with the angle of the wheel hub on the nail head? Or have people just had better luck with the drilled cant over bending axles and therefore recommend it as better?

My other questions will be determined by the sort of opinions I get on the first.

[ngyoung]

What's a hand drill cost? Maybe $30-$50 for a Black and Decker. Yeah, like you, most people are more likely to own one over a drill press but if you want to do a full comparison it is only fair to add it as well.

One con off the top of my head to add for bent rear axles is getting a consistent bend for both axles. If you buy a tool to do it you are getting close to the same costs you mentioned.

For you kid's races the differences are not likely to be a factor with the other competitors. The cons though are pretty significant considering allignment is near the top of the list for speed. Above that would be polished axles since the burs create so much friction. Applying everything else you have learned between this forum and PWDO you should be fine.

[Vitamin K]

[deleted, duplicate]

[Vitamin K]

What's a hand drill cost? Maybe $30-$50 for a Black and Decker. Yeah, like you, most people are more likely to own one over a drill press but if you want to do a full comparison it is only fair to add it as well.

Yeah, I don't know if I'd agree with adding it to the startup cost, just because nearly everybody I know owns an electric hand drill. On top of that, I'm gonna say it's a /lot/ easier to find somebody able/willing to lend you a hand drill than to procure the usage of a drill press. Especially if you live in an apartment or condo.

(Actually, workspace area is another thing that might be worth considering. I suspect that I could build a basic bent-axle aligned car in a much smaller space than is required for a drilled-cant car...but I digress)

One con off the top of my head to add for bent rear axles is getting a consistent bend for both axles. If you buy a tool to do it you are getting close to the same costs you mentioned.

This is an interesting point, and it assumes that, with bent-axles, getting an identical bend on the axles is a requirement for straight alignment. I would agree that you'd want to get close, but since the main benefit of bent axles is that the angle of cant and toe is tune-able, this might mitigate the need for an exact match.

(Open to alternate opinions on this matter, btw)

For you kid's races the differences are not likely to be a factor with the other competitors. The cons though are pretty significant considering allignment is near the top of the list for speed. Above that would be polished axles since the burs create so much friction. Applying everything else you have learned between this forum and PWD you should be fine.

Absolutely. This discussion is only about the canting/alignment methodology. I am assuming that due diligence for all other factors (axle and bore prep, center-of-mass, aerodynamics, etc) would be otherwise identical.

[sporty]

You mentioned, angle of axle on wheel hub.

I have bent the axle head to match the hub.

It provided a faster time. However, this was BSA axles from the kit. However bought axles have the machine work to the inside of the axle head.

I don't use the bock/ silver bullet. I prefer the method I have shared here.
So a $60 to $80 drill press is a real option.

Now the newer high end axle bender, I have one from derby worx mfg. And it does repeat the same cant, angle.

Does a very good job.

Some old retired pros, say even drilling canted, a well tunes car, is still fine tuning with a tiny amount of bend in the axles. For super tuning.

Cost- time time factor.

What is easier for a scout ?

Drill canted ? Bend axles ? Or both, to fix imperfect drilling. Weather canted drilling or strait drilling.

Drilling canted, is a time saving factor, over longer tuning with bent axles.

So, a used drill press for $50 or a high end axle bender or both.
Other then a 3/32 drill rod. The block, silver bullet is not a must to can't.
Its not about debate of tool. How can you do it, with lowest cost in mind.
Average scouts won't spend that kind of money.

But may spend the time, tuning, using bent axles. Over cost.

Average scout is Dependant on the workshops and family and friends who have the tools.


over the years, say for a number reference, 60 scouts. only 5 of them , there parents are spending the money on tools and goodies to go faster.

10 of them will buy graphite, and will share it with the rest.

40 scouts will use lead or whatever, but no tungsten.

The only exception, is a great pack (volunteers) who year after year, come back to help do the workshops and run the race, they share the tools and teach and pass on.

The other thought, is canting at all, a must for scout racing ? on the average many of them will not do canting ! and many will not even know what canting or rail riding is.

It is only the elite and super evolved kids and parents, who will know or learn !

The real question is with any investment, in tools, how much racing and building does your kids plan to do ? and do you want to do adult racing ! how bad do you want to win !


I wish I could really dive into the other thought process.

if they only will spend $40, what will it be on ?

Sporty

[Vitamin K]

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume BSA kit axles here.

What I'm trying to determine is this: Assuming that Racer A has the time and know-how to build a properly aligned car using bent rear axles, does Racer B, who has the setup required to build a well-aligned car with drilled cant and straight axles have any kind of inherent advantage?

What it seems like I'm seeing is that the primary advantage to drilled cant is that you can (given the proper tools and set-up) lock in your desired rear alignment with less effort than somebody who has to tune bent rears. Is this pretty much it? Or is there something that I'm missing.

Of course, I have seen some claim that it is "impossible" to tune bent-wheel alignment properly. Hyperbole? Or is the claim that there's just no possible way to get bent axle rears to be aligned as well as drilled-cant rears?

[Darin McGrew]

Assuming that Racer A has the time and know-how to build a properly aligned car using bent rear axles, does Racer B, who has the setup required to build a well-aligned car with drilled cant and straight axles have any kind of inherent advantage?

If I understand you correctly, then you're trying to determine whether drilled cant with straight axles is a silver bullet, a technique that gives very significant advantages over the alternatives, a technique that one must use to be competitive in a race where others are using it.

Is that a fair interpretation?

[sporty]

My own thoughts,

If both are done right, then both are equal.

[Vitamin K]

Assuming that Racer A has the time and know-how to build a properly aligned car using bent rear axles, does Racer B, who has the setup required to build a well-aligned car with drilled cant and straight axles have any kind of inherent advantage?

If I understand you correctly, then you're trying to determine whether drilled cant with straight axles is a silver bullet, a technique that gives very significant advantages over the alternatives, a technique that one must use to be competitive in a race where others are using it.

Is that a fair interpretation?

I think that is a fair way to phrase it, yes.

Although, if drilled cant with straight axles does provide a definite advantage, I'd like to isolate and understand what that advantage is.

[Speedster]

It would seem to me the BENT axles would give the advantage in scout racing. If we know we will be racing on a Best track, and we buy the same Best track, we can then play with bent axles until we get the fastest time. Without a track and timer there is a huge disadvantage. I, as I suspect others have, made adjustments to cars where their speed increased yet it cannot be explained per the Laws of Physics. Do we know what the top racers in the Leagues really do? Scout racing tends to have rules that are fairly restrictive. If you are required to use the nails from the box I would think a bent axle would be an advantage since it could be adjusted.

[Vitamin K]

It would seem to me the BENT axles would give the advantage in scout racing. If we know we will be racing on a Best track, and we buy the same Best track, we can then play with bent axles until we get the fastest time. Without a track and timer there is a huge disadvantage. I, as I suspect others have, made adjustments to cars where their speed increased yet it cannot be explained per the Laws of Physics. Do we know what the top racers in the Leagues really do? Scout racing tends to have rules that are fairly restrictive. If you are required to use the nails from the box I would think a bent axle would be an advantage since it could be adjusted.

Our rules (as do many others, at Pack level), require using nails from a BSA-branded kit. This would limit us to what comes in the box, or in the aftermarket wheels tubes (be they from the Scout Shop or the Revell 'official BSA' brand).

I think, for the purpose of this mental exercise, it is at least fair to assume that a straight-axle racer could buy a quantity of BSA axles and pick through them for straight ones.

Also, for the purpose of this comparison, I am operating under the assumption that the scout in question would not have access to anything other than a tuning board for testing on.

As an aside, I am partly motivated by the desire to have a way to allow Scouts without a lot of tools and space build cars that are highly competitive at the Pack/District levels. An apartment dweller would have a hard time getting a drill press or a test track, but they might be able to obtain some hand tools and some space on the kitchen floor to tune.

[sporty]

The new tool, by derby worx. The axle bender, leaves no marks and does consistent bends. A 4 foot board and a level and a bowl to raise it up. Is all you need. For tuning. Aside from either a needle nose pliers, a marker or put a slit in the axle head and a flat head screw driver.

[ngyoung]

That tool is even more than a silver bullet.

The new tool, by derby worx. The axle bender, leaves no marks and does consistent bends. A 4 foot board and a level and a bowl to raise it up. Is all you need. For tuning. Aside from either a needle nose pliers, a marker or put a slit in the axle head and a flat head screw driver.

You also are making 4-5 cars this year for your event. That means you are going to have to tune the rear alignment for all of them. Just searching on here and there are some older posts discussing the same topic with multiple guys that started where you are, bending axles and once they switched to using the silver bullet they gained speed. Some of those same guys are now active in adult racing and one is now a current track record holder.

[sporty]

That tool is even more than a silver bullet.

The new tool, by derby worx. The axle bender, leaves no marks and does consistent bends. A 4 foot board and a level and a bowl to raise it up. Is all you need. For tuning. Aside from either a needle nose pliers, a marker or put a slit in the axle head and a flat head screw driver.

You also are making 4-5 cars this year for your event. That means you are going to have to tune the rear alignment for all of them. Just searching on here and there are some older posts discussing the same topic with multiple guys that started where you are, bending axles and once they switched to using the silver bullet they gained speed. Some of those same guys are now active in adult racing and one is now a current track record holder.

Myself personally prefer drilling canted, btu I have the silver bullet. but prefer just using my different size drill rods. been doing it that way since, 2010. while I no longer adult race and have no 42 foot best track.

My best guess and tuning and best guess drift on the kitchen floor led to 2 first place league champion at pwdr in 2010, not bad for a rookie, first year out racing in a league. and 3rd place at blue grass national championship in 2010, not bad with out a track for tuning. In fact id say I was the luckiest guy alive.

My overall point, Is that anyone who takes the time, works hard at all stages of the build can be very fast. A tool is only a guide, a aid to help you. But buy any means will it guarantee you better success.

There is many ways to do it, built a car, canting, ect. In the end, the actual builder, has to have some skills and a bit of luck !

My 1st year, league racing and doing well, was not linked to any one tool. But to my hard work and ability to not follow, but find my own way and think outside of the box.
There our many things that I copy, imitate, but there our many things I found on my own, that people copy and imitate from me. Which is a honor. The ultimate form of flattery.

In the retrospect to Cub Scouts, Any aid of a tool or help, Is a plus to the scout over not having that help or tool or aid. And some tools are better suited for young kids then others. And Some kids can use a tool, where you find another scout is not able to use that same tool.

It is always hard to find a medium for a wide range of kids with different levels of ability and skill sets. My very overall observation from doing workshops. Is that every scout is different and each one, is happy with there car, and what they want is all very different, from Shape to color to going fast. Almost all of the kids want to win.

I tell them, they are all winners and everyone of the kids is a winner for doing such a amazing car !

The last few years of adult race at the scout packs, I would give my trophy away to a kid, there. I would look for the one, most upset or sad and give him my car and tell him. I thought he had the neatest car there !

The first few years of scouting, I found the big winner family, bought everything and new nothing about building. Bought pre prepped wheels and axles and pre cut cars and all they did was add the weight that came with it.

I know, a bit off topic here.

But sometimes, its okay to say, just because a winner uses something, does not mean its the way to go. My old friend Buck, bought many good tools. But he could not built a fast car, he tried very hard and I spent allot of time with him. Skill set is not easy to have and learn and hard to pass on.

Go with the tool, that you feel best will help the scout ! axle bender, silver bullet, pro body tool, a piece of drill rod. drill press, ect. In the end. no matter what you have, if the scout cant use it or do it, Then it makes it harder to help guide him.

Many of the scouts at the workshop choose the pro body tool and I went thru them, but More scouts I dealt with choose that tool over all the ones I shared. And my belt sander, was a big use item.

Gees, don't know if that helped, made matters worse or so forth. Just laid it out there.

Sporty

[Vitamin K]

The new tool, by derby worx. The axle bender, leaves no marks and does consistent bends. A 4 foot board and a level and a bowl to raise it up. Is all you need. For tuning. Aside from either a needle nose pliers, a marker or put a slit in the axle head and a flat head screw driver.

I'm glad to hear that the tool works well. I saw a testing video of the DerbyWorx tool performed by a competing distributor of products, and it worked poorly in his test, but I wanna say he was using it with a steel or titanium axle. I commented on the video and asked how it worked on a typical nickel(?) BSA axle and got no reply.

That tool is even more than a silver bullet.

That is a very fair observation. I don't plan to buy a specialty tool to bend axles with, myself. I've had luck with the pliers-and-wood-brace method a Derbytalker suggested to me. I'm also not convinced that 100% matching bends is a requirement for aligning rears with bent axles.

Just searching on here and there are some older posts discussing the same topic with multiple guys that started where you are, bending axles and once they switched to using the silver bullet they gained speed. Some of those same guys are now active in adult racing and one is now a current track record holder.

I'm well aware of the strong preference for drilled cant among the current top batch of racers. I'm also aware that several of them claim that straight axles rears are faster than bent. What I'm trying to do in this thread is to drill down to the reasons for this superiority, if such exists.

(It might also be worth noting that that racers who build more and more cars tend to get faster just with experience over the years!)