Minor weight question...

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Gtdhw
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Minor weight question...

Post by Gtdhw »

Searched & searched, but couldn't find the answer to a couple questions regarding weight placement.

This is our first year trying a new design, and since it's my second scout, I felt like taking it as an opportunity to "up our speed game". My oldest of two boys, started as a Tiger, and just crossed over in the fall, my youngest is a Tiger this year. My oldest and I built 4 cars each, together, over the last 4 years. When it was his first year, I did my best to "study up" on the pwd thing. I bought the book "How to build the Ultimate pwd car Speed Secrets" from the scout store, and dove in. I built my car each year a couple steps ahead of him, so that we could learn from my mistakes. Once my car was built, we used it only for a "Father vs. Son" race after the local race was over.

All 8 of our cars over the last 4 years, were basically the same car (three tubed 1/4 tungsten holes from the side) with different body shapes. The weighting in the tubes changed some, but they were basically the same car. We kept his cars to a skill level that he could help "hands on" every step of the way, and based his car on the amount of dedication that he was willing to put forth. He did really well over his career, never suffering a loss in a Den or Pack race, and finishing as high as 3rd in the District one year. And last year, he had learned enough about the band saw, drill, measurements, weight, & paint, that he built 95% of his car himself, with me there just to answer questions. Now that he's topped out of the Cubs, he still want's to build one with his brother & me, & race it against me & in the siblings race, which I'm very happy to hear. :mrgreen:

But to where I am now. After wanting to deeper my understanding of some of the things that 've seen over the last few years, I decided to research them. After many, many, hours on the net, and the majority here, I now feel that I have a very good understanding of many of the things that once baffled me, like camber, toe, notched frames, proper tuning techniques, better weight placement, etc. That being said, the 1/4" bar car with a 3.5oz. canopy, sure looks like a great design, that might not only be faster, but will be much easier for Tiger scout skill set build. Just some good placed cuts, and some well placed/drilled holes. Then paint & wheels & tires. No wood filler to "bodywork" to cover weight holes is a nice step to be able to skip at this stage IMO. Anyhow....I am currently building/learning/trying to get familiar with one of these new bodies. The body below will not be used, purely a learning/mock block to get us real close. Here are a couple questions that I haven't had much help in finding the answer too...

With the canopy positioned this way (parallel with the CL ) and all the way to the rear, here are the numbers...

Overall weight - 4.8oz (body is 1oz. & weights total 3.88oz)

COM - 3/4"

FWW - .7oz (18g)

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With the canopy positioned this way (perpendicular with the CL) and as close to centered over the rear axle line as it can get, before interfering with the axle tips, here are the numbers...

COM - 5/8"

FWW - .5oz (14g)


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My question is, is the gain in COM and FWW, good enough reason to turn it sideways? And more specifically, is the weight more stable evenly spread side to side, or running as tight to the CL as possible?

My 2nd question, is a rider of the my first question...The two 3/16oz. tungsten weights will be mounted up in the car from the bottom, and as close to rear of the car as possible (to even the weight over the rear axle line, the best I can), should they be located at the outer edges? Or side by side, riding tight to the cars parallel CL? (not enough room to run them in line on the CL).


I hope these aren't "bad" questions, and any all input/direction is appreciated....
Last edited by Gtdhw on Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minor weight question...

Post by Speedster »

Good questions and I don't know the answers. Did you by any chance ask Maximum Velocity if he ever did a test on this very thing?
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Re: Minor weight question...

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I have not asked any one person specifically. All of my search engine questions kept bringing me back here, until a point where I just started searching this forum alone. I am uber impressed with the fountain of knowledge and complete understanding that I've found here, and was hoping to attract the attention of those like MaxV, Stan Pope, Speedy, VitaminK, and the like. They seem like they could shed some light in the areas that I'm dark in.
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Re: Minor weight question...

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Yes the tungsten canopy was very easy to use and my Son built his cars with them when he was a Cub Scout. We were able to get 5/8 and 1/2 inch coms mounting the canopy like your first picture (perpendicular with the CL). We would get the body down to about 1/2 ounce and use tungsten putty under the car to adjust the com to what we wanted. We added tungsten putty under car in pockets in the rear and under the canopy. Also at weigh in, it was easy for him to add or subtract weight. We never had a stability problem. I bet Stan Pope has idea which way mounting the canopy is best.

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Re: Minor weight question...

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john4840 wrote:Yes the tungsten canopy was very easy to use and my Son built his cars with them when he was a Cub Scout. We were able to get 5/8 and 1/2 inch coms mounting the canopy like your first picture (perpendicular with the CL). We would get the body down to about 1/2 ounce and use tungsten putty under the car to adjust the com to what we wanted. We added tungsten putty under car in pockets in the rear and under the canopy. Also at weigh in, it was easy for him to add or subtract weight. We never had a stability problem. I bet Stan Pope has idea which way mounting the canopy is best.

John

We have always used the tungsten putty in divits (one in front of, and one behind the rear axle) as well. Easiest way to final adjust for the "official" scales that I've seen. We show up @ 4.9 on our home scale, then add the putty in little balls on the scale, until it trips to just over 5.0, then start removing the smallest balls until we "teeter" 5.0. Like you said, very easy for a scout of any age to do himself.


Was your canopy perpendicular to the axle CL (like first pic), or perpendicular to the cars CL (like second pic)?
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Re: Minor weight question...

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The first picture.

John
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Re: Minor weight question...

Post by Stan Pope »

Most builders report that extreme rear weighting performs better on short tracks (28'-32') than on longer tracks (38'-48'). I understand that this is a trade-off between initial velocity on short tracks and DFW friction on the longer tracks. The cause for DFW friction is that greater toe-in is needed to assure stability as DFW toe-in increases.

Also, the smoothness of the track plays a role in how much DFW toe-in is needed.

I did not find any of that necessary info on the tracks that you run on. Please supply that additional info.
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Re: Minor weight question...

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We have pretty strict rules. Pretty much extended wheel base and graphite are allowed, nothing else, lol. All 4 wheels must touch flat, all across the tread. No bent axles. Only "minor truing/sanding" of wheels. "No rail riding". All box supplied parts. I can't recall overall length (I know, bad me, lol), but quick drop, long straight, no center rail/outer rails only, plastic. We're building for a 4 wheel straight tune.

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Re: Minor weight question...

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Which kinda sucks, because if he does good, we go to the district track, that is long arc/drop & short straight with center rail and no side rails. Won pack races, but never better than 3rd on the district track. We're hoping that a complete chassis/weight design change, changes that. My oldest scout crossed over in the fall, and is done with competing but wants to build & sibling race, along with me and my youngest (Tiger this year). We always built the same skeleton of a car, with different body shapes. They were all built with the "Building a pwd car speed secrets" book, so it was the 3 side holes drilled for tungsten tubes, chassis. It was a very successful chassis for us at the Pack level, but seemed to fall just short at the district level. I've done much more research this year, and am trying to step up our game to the next level, while still staying at Tiger friendly level build. So it's like a "phase II" of pwd'ing for us.


pic of district track

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Re: Minor weight question...

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That is a tuff situation. Are you able to take your car home after your pack PWD? If you can, you could turn your car into a 4 on the floor rail rider. Search Sporty's posts, he has successfully done this with his sons, or you may want to PM him. Here is a post I found 4 on the floor rail rider here that might interest you.

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Re: Minor weight question...

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^^^Thank you. Very good info, as yes, we take our cars home after the Pack race, and can do whatever in the month overlay, until District.
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Re: Minor weight question...

Post by Noskills »

Gtdhw,

Search under Team Noskills 2015 Lineup for some photos and details of my canopy car. It was pretty fast, but not my fastest. COM of 0.5 and needed alot of steer into the rail (4 in over 4 ft)
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Re: Minor weight question...

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Thanks Noskills. Looks like I came up with something pretty close to yours. I know that these thin cars would/will be faster without the canopy, and the weight in the frame, but just not realistic for my Tigers current skill set. I think I'll be try building one like that next year with my oldest, then my youngest, the following year.

Changing up body styles, and turning the canopy sideways, I was able to achieve a 9/16" COM (we've never had better than 11/16"), within 3g of even side-to-side rear wheel weight , and a FWW of 14g. I think we'll be happy with that this year, since those are much better numbers than anything we've achieved before. This is mine, and the boys will start on theirs later this week...



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Re: Minor weight question...

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Gtdhw wrote:Which kinda sucks, because if he does good, we go to the district track, that is long arc/drop & short straight with center rail and no side rails. Won pack races, but never better than 3rd on the district track.
Okay, you already know how to do well on your pack track. Let's focus on the district track and district rules. A second build is indicated?
What is allowed at district?
Your description of the district track sounds like a "short" track ... 28 to 30' from start line to finish line, so extreme rear weighting is indicated.
What about the other rules?? 3 or 4 wheels touching? cambered axles? Rail guiding? ...?
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Re: Minor weight question...

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Our Pack runs off of/shares the District rules. They are one in the same. And the track is indeed quite a bit shorter than our Pack track.

We are hoping that the new steps that we take this year, will be the difference at District. We have never done anything to the wheel bores before, and our weight has never been so far back before (9/16" com this year and doing the bore polishing & barnishing). Last year at District, he would've had a solid 2nd place finish, but as chance would have it, he had to face the eventual winner twice in early competition (2 lane track, double elimination based on random draw per round), and both races were "too close to call" with the eye, and he was "just" on the wrong side both times. Those two cars, were at least a car length ahead of the competition, in every other round of racing.

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