Want to take it to the next level

Secrets, tips, tools, design considerations, materials, the "science" behind it all, and other topics related to building the cars and semi-trucks.
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BullFrog
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by BullFrog » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:04 pm

Vitamin K wrote:
BullFrog wrote: Going over the rules from last year. Looks like there is only a minimum wheelbase requirement. :eager: The front wheels just can't stick out beyond the front of the car
Image
The Northern Star rules are, in my opinion, among the best rules ever drafted for Cub Racing.

That said, there are some seriously fast racers in that Council, and the rules will let you build an extremely competitive car.

I know that Lightninboy and Davet have had success within the NSC. Definitely search out some of their posts and read up! And, again, you really should consider learning and running oil. Once you experience the difference, you'll not want to bother with graphite anymore. :)
I will check out Lightning boy. Maybe we will give oil a shot. Doesn't look difficult at all. We always ran graphite as a kid and we did last year. But sounds like oil really makes a difference



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whodathunkit
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:59 pm

Vitamin K wrote:Lots of really fast racers swear by Studio 35 Q-tip stalks, so I don't think you can go wrong there. Definitely agree with Whoda on checking the thickness. Also, I'd also recommend that you and your son practice polishing on some throwaway wheels first, since it's not terribly hard to destroy a bore with q-tip stems if you spin too quickly.
Vitamin K , I here you on that one!

( But what about the direction you rotate the paper wrapped stem into the bore.)

Let's Face it!
Most all of us have had this problem with the swab stems at one time or another.. as we just cut the swab ends off.. check for size .
Then away we go in a hurry to polish the bore ... giving no thought or paying any mind to how the swab stem is wrapped.
So we rotate the paper wound stem down into the wheel bore in the wrong direction causing the wrapping on the swab stem to gather enough
to bind itself into the wheel bore.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

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Vitamin K
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by Vitamin K » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:06 pm

whodathunkit wrote: ( But what about the direction you rotate the paper wrapped stem into the bore.)

Let's Face it!
Most all of us have had this problem with the swab stems at one time or another.. as we just cut the swab ends off.. check for size .
Then away we go in a hurry to polish the bore ... giving no thought or paying any mind to how the swab stem is wrapped.
So we rotate the paper wound stem down into the wheel bore in the wrong direction causing the wrapping on the swab stem to gather enough
to bind itself into the wheel bore.
Ah, now we're getting into Q-tip masterclass!

Do you have any suggestions for easily determining the wind-direction of a Q-tip stem?



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whodathunkit
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by whodathunkit » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:22 am

Well Vitamin K,
Short of pulling off the end of the swab and picking away at paper spindle to find out in what direction the spindle is wrapped
is one way for determining the wind-direction of the paper spindle.
You know how hard it is to see the end seam of the spindle just by eye sight alone and with out a looking glass.

Just giving some thought to it.. the paper spindle is wrapped and when wet from polish and tight in the bore and then rotated in the wrong direction
it comes unwound with in it's self in the bore but when rotated in the right direction of the spindle it stays tight in the bore.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

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whodathunkit
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by whodathunkit » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:01 pm

[quote"Vitamin K]

Here's what I'd recommend:

First, I think Whoda is spot-on with the bore prep recommendations. The only caveat I'd throw in is that the Derby Worx bore wax is actually a post-polishing coat that you'd apply, rather than a polishing compound. My kids and I use Novus 2 on bores, with fluffy pipe cleaners. If we have the time, we'll first polish with Pepsodent Whitening toothpaste, then do the final polish with the Novus (washing thoroughly with Blue Dawn dish soap between each polishing).[/quote]

Thank's Vitamin K,

Is the water your using tap water along with the blue dawn dish soap? (some dish soaps can be harsh & cut wax's) and with just tap water alone.
If the wheels are not dried out good there is a good chance of water.. and or.. water spotting if left to dry out more before the next steps.

And if there is water.. and or.. water spotting going on in the wheel bore it could also be trapped or covered over with the coating or sealant.
Plus a chance that the coating or sealant would not bond.

Car wash concentrated soaps are less harsh on cutting down car type wax's products used in bore prep process's these days.

The tap water is undistilled so it is not clean or free of contaminates & minerals and can be really hard depending on where you live.
So distilled water would be a better water type to use when cleaning wheel bores and when dealing with car wax type products for protective coatings
or sealants in are wheel bore prep.

And Yeah Vitamin K!
I'v been putting some deep thoughts into the wheel bore prep process here lately.. and wanting to take it to the next level as well.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

Speedster
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by Speedster » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:35 am

Because of the title of this particular Post I'm wondering at what point should bore prep stop and other things, perhaps far more important, be considered. Is the wheel round? How much difference does it make if the wheel is .001, .002,.003, .004 out of round ? I have no idea. Is the wheel balanced? Very few wheels, if any, will stop after spinning without rocking when spun on that cute little wheel balancer. It is possible to get a wheel to simply stop after spinning but is it worth doing? Again, I have no idea. Is the wheel heavy? This one can easily be determined with an accurate scale, or maybe 3 accurate scales. You do have 3 scales I hope so you can determine how much weight is on each of your 3 wheels after the car is built.
Do I need mental help? To be determined. I do agree it is a lot of Fun playing with this stuff.
Best
Speedster



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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by whodathunkit » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:41 am

whodathunkit wrote:Hi and :welcome: BullFrog

You asked what's a good way to polish bores that wont break the bank.
( I'll leave that up to you and your son for your needs in your quest for more speed.)
Here are some thoughts about wheel bore prep that are often over looked that can break the bank
Best tip I can offer in your car building is don't over think things to much and get off track.
Speedster wrote:Because of the title of this particular Post I'm wondering at what point should bore prep stop and other things, perhaps far more important, be considered. Is the wheel round? How much difference does it make if the wheel is .001, .002,.003, .004 out of round ? I have no idea. Is the wheel balanced? Very few wheels, if any, will stop after spinning without rocking when spun on that cute little wheel balancer. It is possible to get a wheel to simply stop after spinning but is it worth doing? Again, I have no idea. Is the wheel heavy? This one can easily be determined with an accurate scale, or maybe 3 accurate scales. You do have 3 scales I hope so you can determine how much weight is on each of your 3 wheels after the car is built.
Do I need mental help? To be determined. I do agree it is a lot of Fun playing with this stuff.
Best
Speedster

Yeah! your mental help needs to be determined Speedster, ;) it is fun tinkering with this stuff... as Sporty would put it!
Whoda.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

Speedster
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by Speedster » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:48 pm

Merry Christmas to you, Whoda, and to all you Derby talk folks.

Let the workshops begin.
Cheers,
Speedster



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whodathunkit
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by whodathunkit » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:26 pm

Merry Christmas to you Speedster!

And Oh'' about your mental health..
Santa told me that he seen how you were driving on the track... and that you were getting a roll cage & a tow hook for Christmas.
http://i43.tinypic.com/2621pok.jpg

Merry Christmas Bill.

Whoda.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

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BullFrog
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by BullFrog » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:36 pm

I work a medical device manufacturer and have access to some different oils and lapping compounds. One of my coworkers showed me a couple options. I think we will try on atleast rhe car ill enter into the parent race and see what kind of times it runs. I wish I had a track so I could experiment with this stuff.



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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by BullFrog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:57 am

Here is some stuff to maybe polish the axles with.
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by Speedster » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:14 pm

The problem I see in trying that product is there is no way in ever knowing if it helped you or hurt you. Let's consider the system I learned from others. First,we do not sand the axles. OK, I did not learn that from anyone else. We polish the axles with Brasso and a Dremel tool and then coat them with Lemon Pledge. Is this the best system? I don't know but we have enjoyed wonderful success with this system. I've met many wonderful people on Derby Talk over the years and some of them consistently take the 1st place trophy. Some of them end up in the top 12 of the Mid America race. How in the world they do that I'll never know.
I have the luxury of working with scouts year after year because the Pinewood Derby is my year around hobby. For most folks it is a 5 year journey. I like to pick the brains of these scouts who keep taking the 1st place trophy. The point I'm trying to make is, there's no time to waste. Learn all you can from the experts and use their systems. If you have time to build a second car, sure, go ahead and try your product. I wish you well.



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BullFrog
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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by BullFrog » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:56 pm

Speedster wrote:The problem I see in trying that product is there is no way in ever knowing if it helped you or hurt you. Let's consider the system I learned from others. First,we do not sand the axles. OK, I did not learn that from anyone else. We polish the axles with Brasso and a Dremel tool and then coat them with Lemon Pledge. Is this the best system? I don't know but we have enjoyed wonderful success with this system. I've met many wonderful people on Derby Talk over the years and some of them consistently take the 1st place trophy. Some of them end up in the top 12 of the Mid America race. How in the world they do that I'll never know.
I have the luxury of working with scouts year after year because the Pinewood Derby is my year around hobby. For most folks it is a 5 year journey. I like to pick the brains of these scouts who keep taking the 1st place trophy. The point I'm trying to make is, there's no time to waste. Learn all you can from the experts and use their systems. If you have time to build a second car, sure, go ahead and try your product. I wish you well.
That's a dang good point. Stick to what you know. :bigups:



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Re: Want to take it to the next level

Post by Vitamin K » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:34 am

I'm going to encourage you to do both: Go with what's tried and true, AND keep experimenting. And if you discover something awesome, be sure to tell me about it. ;)

Since you're running under NSC rules, this means that you're going to be allowed to use aftermarket axles, and wheels that have been worked on the outer treads. You cannot go wrong for this with wheels and axles from Derby Evolution: In fact, there's an entire section of his site for Northern Star Council races, so check it out. The R160s would be the fastest option for wheels, and the 93 Velocity Pro axles are used by a lot of the league racers. If your budget is tight, I think I'd go with upgraded axles and try to find the best stock wheels available. Of course, you are free to go with stock wheels and axles...but I know that competition is tight in your council!

Regarding lubrication, this is what my kids and I do with our oil process. We use three products: Max-Pro Heavy Duty Silicone Lubricant, Rejex Synthetic Wax and Krytox GPL 100 oil. You'll also want some canned air (unless you have a compressor with a blower attachment).

There are some allegedly faster formulations of Krytox sold by some of the vendors with some additives (thinners?) to make them faster, but I've yet to experiment with them. Also, the preference of League Racers for axle Spray is Jig-A-Loo rather than than Max-Pro, but the former is not sold in the USA (You have to import from Canada) and also more noxious than the latter. I've been advised that the Max-Pro is a very close second to Jig-A-Loo, but I really don't have a lot of evidence to show on that.

Start by polishing your wheel bores and axles as previously discussed. Your wheel bores should be glassy smooth and your axles should be shiny and mirror finished. And, of course, everything should be clean. Dust is your mortal enemy now.

Start with the wheels. Take a fluffy pipe cleaner and carefully smear a thin coat of Rejex into the bore, coating evenly and neatly. Let it sit for for about fifteen minutes, then take a fresh pipe cleaner segment, put it into a drill and spin it to buff out the inside of the bore. Then blast it with the canned air to get any chunks of wax off. Let it sit for at least four hours before using the wheel.

If possible repeat the wheel bore wax process two or more times for each wheel...but once should be sufficient, if you're pressed for time. Make sure that the wax cures at least 4 hours between each application, and ideally let it go for 8 hours before you mount the axle in the wheel. Make sure you keep the wheels away from dust...a nice tupperware container would be your friend here.

For the axles, hold them by the tip and spray them with the Max-Pro, coating them evenly. Make sure you get the underside of the head as well. Flick them to clean off any excess and then let the coating dry for at least 15 minutes. I like to insert them into a wooden block with shallow holes drilled for the axle tips, and then put the block into a tupperware bowl with lid.

When you're ready to put the axles into the wheels, take your Krytox and put 1-2 pinhead-sized drops of oil on the axle and gently turn and tip the axle so that the oil coats the entire shaft and underside of the head. Then take a small strip of paper and wick off any excess oil from the axle. You're going for thin film here, and that's it. Immediately insert the axle into your prepped wheel and spin it to help distribute the oil. You can now put the wheel and axle onto the car.

Be advised that an oil-lubed car will not feel as "loose" as a graphite-lubed car. This is because the oil is more effective at higher speeds. So, while graphite feels more slippery on your tuning table, the oil process is going to yield a faster car on the track.



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Rail Rider question - wheel base..help?

Post by Jojo » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:18 am

I've done extended wheel base but found out it is better to have the wheels in the back(or further up the track) make sense to me....anyway this year doing RR again, but just want some confirmation on wheel base. I was going to extend the back wheels only and leave the front. but now I'm wondering what the best location for the front is? best wheel base dimension for rail riding??? Thank you!!!



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