New Track PVC / or aluminum

Commercial tracks.
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mikemacv
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New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by mikemacv »

Hello
We are thinking about buying a new track I don't want a wood track we have one of them but do any you have one of the PVC tracks
What do like about them or not or should we get one of them aluminum

Thanks Mike Vogt
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by PWD »

Personally I am not familiar with the PVC tracks. I have seen a plastic track.

The issue is the difference in track going from a pack race to a district race and sometimes beyond. You really want the tracks to be somewhat alike. The plastic track was really, really fast and significantly different than everything else.

Previously it was pretty simple. They were all wood tracks. In the last ten years I have seen the tracks quickly switching to where a majority are aluminum. The aluminum tracks break down:

- Oldest aluminum tracks seem to be BetaCraft
- Medium aged tracks seem to be BestTrack
- Newer seem to be a mixture of Pianadosi and BestTrack

If we were going to purchase a new track I would buy either a aluminum Pianadosi or BestTrack.

The most common length being 40' - 42'

I think the safest decision is doing what is most common. Less chance in getting a lot of grief.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by gpraceman »

I'm not so sure that material will make so much of a difference if you are comparing PVC or aluminum. They are both fast racing surfaces.

The big difference comes in the length of track, the track geometry (height of pins, angle of slope, radius of transition curve, and length of straightaway) and how cars are kept in their lanes (center guide vs. edge guide).

I do agree with PWD. If there is a next level race, it is better to go with a track that is similar in material, length, geometry and type of lane guide. To go with something significantly different could put your racers at a disadvantage for the next level of race.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by mikemacv »

I think I was looking at the cost I think the PVC is around 300 cheaper then the Aluminum then we could buy a timer then but I sure don't want it to warp or shrink eather
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by Teeeman »

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the construction of a PVC track but it sounds like storage would be something to think about, if it got hot it could warp whereas an Al track would shake it off in stride?


BUT... an Al track is probably more susceptible to being bent?


-T
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by PWD »

Mike are there commercial PVC tracks? Or are you looking at building a track out of PVC?

I would really seek out someone that has several years experience with a PVC track before I purchased one. I realize that was the idea of your original post. But if it is a commercial track maybe the company can give you a list of references that you can talk to.

Like to hear how it turns out.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by gpraceman »

PWD wrote:Mike are there commercial PVC tracks? Or are you looking at building a track out of PVC?
The two commercial plastic tracks are SuperTrack and DerbyMagic. SuperTrack has been around for some time. DerbyMagic is new to the market.

Here's a quick comparison:
- SuperTrack is an edge guide track and DerbyMagic is the traditional center guide type of track.
- SuperTrack has a PVC pipe (looks like sprinkler pipe) and shock cord support structure and the DerbyMagic track has an aluminum support structure.
- SuperTrack has a trap type "garage" stop section and DerbyMagic has a ramp style.
- SuperTrack uses joiner plates to connect sections which require no hardware (along the lines of the plastic tabs that join Hot Wheels track) and DerbyMagic uses metal plates and screws.
- SuperTrack has a start gate that is "normally open" and held closed by a latch (preferable design), while the DerbyMagic start gate is "normally closed" requires a flick of the wrist to open (not recommended).

You may be able to use various commercial timers with these, but you may have to raise the flat straightaway to accomodate the optical sensors under the track. SuperTimer (the company that makes the SuperTrack) does make a timer for the SuperTrack which uses mechnical flags the cars hit to detect the finish).
Teeeman wrote:Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the construction of a PVC track but it sounds like storage would be something to think about, if it got hot it could warp whereas an Al track would shake it off in stride?
The concern with plastic tracks is how durable the material is and how it will age. Will it crack, get brittle, warp, get scratched or gouged, or color fade? Both manufacturers state their tracks are not susceptible to these problems. Storage-wise, the two plastic tracks on the market look easier to store and weigh less than the aluminum tracks of the same length.
Teeeman wrote:BUT... an Al track is probably more susceptible to being bent?
The BestTrack and Piantedosi track sections would be really hard to bend. However, if you dropped a hammer on each of these, I think the BestTrack would get dented and be unraceable until you hammered out the dent. The actual aluminum thickness on the BestTrack is quite thin in comparison to the Piantedosi extrusion. The Beta Crafts aluminum plating would also take some significant damage with a hammer drop (it would also be easy to bend if not fully supported by wood underneath). You might get a ding in the Piantedosi aluminum, but it would be really hard to dent.

A relative comparison of the cross sections can be seen below.

Piantedosi cross section
Image

BestTrack cross section
Image
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by PWD »

My confusion was around "plastic" versus "PVC". I did not realize they were the same.

We have a BestTrack and on occasion a kid has stepped on the track accidently. Last year a boy was making a tunnel over the track with their body and another boy pushed the tunnel boy and he fell on the track. On another occasion a boy on test night dropped his car on the track. Neither time was the track damaged. An aluminum track is not going to get bent easily. But we were probably lucky with the dropped car because if hit the lane square it would probably have bent the track.

The only plastic track we have ever seen was a beautiful track. It was extremely fast and it was a center guided track. The track was supported by a bunch of PVC pipes. It was actually setup elevated. So it was really easy to watch the races.

But ultimately it was only used one year at districts because there was a lot of complaints about the track being different than the other tracks. The track was brand new at the time and I think the owner was disappointed in the decision of the district.

They have now gone back to using three identical aluminum tracks where the times are somewhat consistent.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by gpraceman »

PWD wrote:My confusion was around "plastic" versus "PVC". I did not realize they were the same.
PVC is a type of plastic.
PWD wrote:The only plastic track we have ever seen was a beautiful track. It was extremely fast and it was a center guided track. The track was supported by a bunch of PVC pipes.
Are you sure it was a center guide track? Otherwise, I would think it was a SuperTrack, based on the PVC pipe supports.
PWD wrote:But ultimately it was only used one year at districts because there was a lot of complaints about the track being different than the other tracks. The track was brand new at the time and I think the owner was disappointed in the decision of the district.
If it was a SuperTrack, it being an edge guide track, not a center guide track that is typically used, can alone cause complaints about using it at a district or council race. Using it a pack race would be fine, but it may put the pack's racers at a disadvantage when racing on different tracks at district/council.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by PWD »

We were pretty green when we ran on the plastic track. So it is possible I did notice the lack of center guide.

The major issue with the plastic track was that times were not comparable to the other tracks. So when you took the fastest from the plastic track to run on the other track they did not stay close to the same order. This made people suspicious of some type of problem.

One major issue is that the track was extremely fast. I don't remember how long it was but the times were around 2.5 seconds. The other tracks were over 54 feet aluminum and times were around 4 seconds.

There might have been additional issues with the track that I was not aware of.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by SuperDave »

Some SuperTrack clarifications (and perhaps some opinions).

SuperTrack is not PVC it is ABS. PVC (polyvinyl chloride) is used for pipes mostly because it is cheap. ABS (Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitr ... ne_styrene) is considerably stronger. It is used everywhere from the fittings on your refrigerator to your garbage cans to your car's bumper!

The starting stand is made with custom ABS tubing, not PVC. The joining fittings are PVC, tooling those was prohibitively expensive even in the quantities we use. The ABS tubing has the same outer diameter as 1/2" PVC (0.84") so that we can use the fittings but has a much smaller (0.505") inner diameter both for strength and so that we can put a 1/2" hot rolled steel rod in the base of the stand. Overall it's extraordinarily rigid and lightweight. Early stands had three horizontal supports for the track surface. For several years now we've used four supports.
SuperTrack uses joiner plates to connect sections which require no hardware (along the lines of the plastic tabs that join Hot Wheels track)

The early 8' section design used 'joiner plates' at each junction. That was dropped when we went to 7' sections. Now 'joiners' are used only at the bottom of the ramp where the track is still curving somewhat and at the finish. Small tabs keep the joints in alignment. They were present in earlier designs as well. The finish joiner lifts the track up for additional wire clearance and for the past year has performed an additional function.

Part of the 'hardware' in our earlier designs was rubber bands. (Noted in other posts and competitor websites.) These were used to hold the joints together. Because our RaceManager software schedules cars with similar speeds against each other, it was quite possible to have four cars cross the finish line essentially together. Also know as a "20 ounce sledge hammer", these cars hit the garage and transferred their energy to it. The garage transferred the energy to the last section of track which could then pull away from the previous section especially if the floor were slippery. It was also occasionally true that some folks got tired at the end of the track and left off a rubber band or two. Others tried to cure the issue with Velcro or duct tape.

Effective one year ago (and available as a simple user modification to older tracks) we eliminated the rubber bands, changed the final joiner so that it goes into the end of the track but stops firmly and added an 1/8" nylon cord that ties the joiner and thus the end of the track to the steel rod weighted base of the start stand. Now the "sledge hammer" tries and fails to pull the entire track. Assembly/disassembly is also easier.
The concern with plastic tracks is how durable the material is and how it will age.

The ABS in SuperTrack will age and get brittle and crack at about the same rate as the bumper on your car. Actually since it's not routinely exposed to sunlight it will last even longer.
Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the construction of a PVC track but it sounds like storage would be something to think about, if it got hot it could warp whereas an Al track would shake it off in stride?

PVC has problems with hot water that's why hot water lines are CPVC. ABS is a whole different animal. ABS is not only used for the bumper of your car but used inside as well. Anyone been inside a car (air off) on a nice Arizona day? Anyone seen an aluminum window or screen door in Florida after a year or two?
However, if you dropped a hammer on each of these,

This is an interesting although not very useful test. How many people use a hammer to assemble a PWD track? We actually wacked the living daylights out of our track early on and absent some brutal force there was no damage. But, as mentioned along the way by others, kids find fun things to do. SuperTrack won't make a strong bridge but it won't be damaged if kids try. Twist it, whack it, jump on it, no problem. Our site shows a picture of it being run over by a 100 PSI motorhome tire. That's abuse and it survived without damage.
If it was a SuperTrack, it being an edge guide track, not a center guide track that is typically used

There are actually three kinds of center guides.
1. True center guides found almost exclusively on conventional wooden tracks.
2. Edge guides found mostly on SuperTrack and S&W wooden tracks.
3. Center rails found on BestTrack and Piantedosi.

True center guides act as an air spoiler under the car so the car is unlikely to generate lift and even more so since wooden tracks are relatively rough so the car does not go as fast.

Some SuperTrack edge-guided critics have noted that cars have 'climbed the rail' of SuperTrack. In our experience, especially since the rail is higher than a 'standard' guide, the cars don't climb over but rather 'fly' over. That is, the lack of an air spoiler under the car allows a light weight, aerodynamically shaped car to generate lift and pick the front wheels off the ground, get very unstable and leave the lane. SuperTrack's fast surface allows really good cars to go really fast making the lift problem more pronounced. The proof that it's lift and not climbing is easily demonstrated by simply turning the car around.

Not well known is that center rail (the true design of aluminum 'center guided' tracks) have the same lift problem and perhaps worse. The rails keep the air confined to the channel under the car so lift is all but guaranteed.
a lot of complaints about the track being different than the other tracks

ALL tracks are different than other tracks. There are tracks that are close to 100 feet long, that loop the loop, that have a constant slope. All of the objections I've ever heard came from adults who lost. I've never heard one from a winner or from a youngster. Must just be my hearing.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by gpraceman »

SuperDave wrote:Anyone seen an aluminum window or screen door in Florida after a year or two?
So, how many people store their aluminum tracks out in the weather? I have used Piantedosi and BestTrack aluminum tracks for several years now and have not seen a pitting issue with either one. Has anyone else?
SuperDave wrote:Our site shows a picture of it being run over by a 100 PSI motorhome tire. That's abuse and it survived without damage.
Motor homes, large tractors, or even people standing on a track section only show how strong the track section is with a load applied. To me such displays are more "advertising gimicks" than a real assurance of durability. They really do not show how they would handle something dropped or banged into it. That would be more useful for the customer to know.
SuperDave wrote:True center guides act as an air spoiler under the car so the car is unlikely to generate lift and even more so since wooden tracks are relatively rough so the car does not go as fast.

Some SuperTrack edge-guided critics have noted that cars have 'climbed the rail' of SuperTrack. In our experience, especially since the rail is higher than a 'standard' guide, the cars don't climb over but rather 'fly' over. That is, the lack of an air spoiler under the car allows a light weight, aerodynamically shaped car to generate lift and pick the front wheels off the ground, get very unstable and leave the lane. SuperTrack's fast surface allows really good cars to go really fast making the lift problem more pronounced. The proof that it's lift and not climbing is easily demonstrated by simply turning the car around.

Not well known is that center rail (the true design of aluminum 'center guided' tracks) have the same lift problem and perhaps worse. The rails keep the air confined to the channel under the car so lift is all but guaranteed.
The lift issue seems exaggerated to me, based on my experience with the two aluminum tracks in dozens of races over the years. I've seen some extremely rear weighted cars do quite well. If lift was such an issue, I would expect many of these very light front end cars to have plenty of problems, including jumping out of their lane ("flying over" the lane guide) for no other apparent reason. It has been rare in my experience to have a car unexplainably jump out of its lane. Usually, a track joint or debris on the track is the culprit. Where there is an increase in lift, there is also a substantial increase in drag, which should also slow these cars significantly.

I don't see how turning a car around is proof of a lift problem. Sure, airflow around the body will change, with most car designs, but there are other factors that will significantly affect a car's performance when run backwards. A rear weighted car can perform quite significantly different when run backwards. Also, alignment of axles optimized for running forward can also cause a big change in performance when running backwards. IMO that is not a valid test unless you can eliminate the other factors.
SuperDave wrote:ALL tracks are different than other tracks. There are tracks that are close to 100 feet long, that loop the loop, that have a constant slope. All of the objections I've ever heard came from adults who lost. I've never heard one from a winner or from a youngster. Must just be my hearing.
The issue is not limited to using plastic tracks. I have heard the same complaints about using an aluminum track at a higher level race when most of the local groups are using wooden tracks. While no two tracks are exactly alike, the point is that cars will run differently on tracks of different geometry, length, material, etc., so it is a concern for what is used at an upper level race. People do not want their racers to be at a disadvantage even before the race is run, so it is not just a issue with the "losers".
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by SuperDave »

A relative comparison of the cross sections can be seen below.
and
along the lines of the plastic tabs that join Hot Wheels track
While we're talking about cross sections, tabs and Hot Wheels (a Mattel trademark), here are some pictures that address those issues.
Image Image
The first shows the profile of SuperTrack directly compared to a Hot Wheels track. Only about a half of the SuperTrack Lane is shown. The second shows the underside of a SuperTrack joint and the 'tabs' used to insure alignment. The bulk of the tab is solvent welded to the beginning of each extension with the smaller portion extending into the previous section.
timer for the SuperTrack which uses mechnical (sic) flags
Image
This picture shows a finish line sensor in its mount being installed in the track. The sensor is electro-mechanical. Actually, it's a piezo crystal strip mounted in a mylar film sandwich. (Same stuff as in your kids sneakers that light up or in the starter of your gas grill.) When hit it generates about 100 volts! Then, it bends out of the way to let the car pass.
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Re: New Track PVC / or aluminum

Post by gpraceman »

SuperDave wrote:
timer for the SuperTrack which uses mechnical (sic) flags
...
This picture shows a finish line sensor in its mount being installed in the track. The sensor is electro-mechanical. Actually, it's a piezo crystal strip mounted in a mylar film sandwich. (Same stuff as in your kids sneakers that light up or in the starter of your gas grill.) When hit it generates about 100 volts! Then, it bends out of the way to let the car pass.
I classified them as "mechanical", since it takes the mechanical action of the car striking it to trigger the sensor.

The problem that I have with the sensors is that I have seen photos of them bent to differing degrees. That will pose a problem in a race where racers do not run on every lane of the track or do but do not run an equal number of times on those lanes. This will also pose a problem in a race using points scoring instead of times scoring. The timing error in these cases will not cancel out. While, I understand that your software enforces times scoring and running on every lane and doing so an equal number of times (which is my preferred way of running things), not everyone wants to run a race that way. It is something that the consumer needs to be aware of.
SuperDave wrote:(Noted in other posts and competitor websites.)
IMO the track manufacturers, in general, spend a little too much time trying to point out the weaknesses of their competition (negative advertising) or inaccurately portraying competing products (false advertising), instead of focusing on pointing out the benefits of their own product. That might be a bit strong of a statement, but I feel it is accurate from what I have seen.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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