Upgrading existing track - best system? justification?

[dknowles67]

HELP!

I'm trying to get our Pack to upgrade it's old PWD system. We currently use a long wooden 3-lane track (not sure but probably 28-32 feet, 4 feet high), with a mechanical starter made with dowel rods sticking up through the bottom of the track. A lever pulls all 3 dowels down at (approximately) the same time. This year we used double-elimination, with no regard to lane assignment (most unfair, IMHO).
I have pretty good electronic, computer, and carpentry skills, and am willing to spend as much time and effort as it takes to improve the system. Building a complete new track however, is probably a little more than I'm willing to take on, and much more than my wife will tolerate.

Some options that are on the table:
1) Buy an aluminum track to go over our existing wooden track.
2) Design, and build an electronic timer using schematics from the web, and Radio Shack parts.
3) Buy a cheap electronic timer kit, and assemble it.
4) Buy an already assembled (expensive) electronic timer kit.
5) Buy a software package for managing the races/recording results.
6) Designing a new software package from scratch taylored to our Packs needs. (I'm a software engineer - proficient in Windows programming)

I know this opens up a wide range of options - subject to individuals opinions. I'm looking for a little help in narrowing down the options. I'd like to know the pros and cons, and be able to justify any expense incurred, and plead my case to the Pack.

One big concern my Pack has, is that once a new system in adopted, I may leave the Pack, and no one else will be able to run the system. My youngest son is a 2nd grader (Wolf), and I intend to see him through Webelos (my oldest son is Webelo now). I would be willing to help out once my sons get too old, and I would assume someone else may join the pack with electronics skills before then (there may already be some).

Advice anyone?

[Da Graphite Kid]

dknowles67,

A few suggestions: I live in Alabama next to a lake. The humidity here is high so a wooden track stored in an uncontrolled enviroment will deteriorate at a faster rate than at other locations in the country. If your Pack does not have a place to store the track that has temperature and humidty control (ours does not), than you may want to consider an all-aluminum track and not just the plating. If you were wanting to use the aluminum plating you may want to compare price versus a whole aluminum track anyway as the cost difference may not be worth the aggravation factor of the plating. I have not used or seen the aluminum track plating myself so I really can't comment on its attachment and useage. Another consideration of wood vs. aluminum is track maintenance. A wooden track will require more maintenance than an aluminum track. You would have to train your replacement in how to care for the wood of the track (frame and/or racing surface) as well as the timer and software.

For the timer and software for the long term, you will either have to rely on someone teaching someone else, who will stay with the Pack until they teach someone else,... to use and repair the timer and software or you will have to go with something that is supported. This can mean a commercially available timer and software or you may find something on the web that is volunteer supported such as:

http://pinewood.hmpg.net/

I was looking at using this timer and software due to cost but my concerns were for the long term and decided to go with a commercial timer and software. You might even be able to help by posting on their forum!


Da Graphite Kid

[Stan Pope]

HELP!

I'm trying to get our Pack to upgrade it's old PWD system. We currently use a long wooden 3-lane track (not sure but probably 28-32 feet, 4 feet high), with a mechanical starter made with dowel rods sticking up through the bottom of the track. A lever pulls all 3 dowels down at (approximately) the same time. This year we used double-elimination, with no regard to lane assignment (most unfair, IMHO).

I think that the first thing to do is to evaluate your current situation more completely. The parameters that you listed are "in the mainstream" and very workable. There are other important parameters that you should check before laying plans.
1. Lane integrity. Are the individual lanes' racing surface and guide rails smooth and free of gouges?
2. Lane equality. Take a pair of reasonably well prepared cars. Run them in Lanes 1 and 2 a few times, alternating lane assignments. How did the winner's margin change? (Exceptional cars on a well prepared 32 ft. Piantedosi track have shown a 1/8" change in winning margin when lanes are swapped.) Repeat this exercise for Lanes 2 and 3.
3. Starting gate. Is the starting gate a single unit with the pins firmly attached so that everything moves in concert? If it is not springloaded to open briskly, can that be constructed?
4. Finish line & stopping area. Will the area after the finish line stop the cars gently? If not, can you construct improvements? Folded "egg-crate" foam arranged so that the cars run under it is very effective. Michael L's "ballistic" method looks good, too.

Are there any specific problems with the track?

[Derby Wizard]

I personally like seeing and hearing the wood cars go down a wood track.

I wouldn't be overly concerned with the temperature and humidity with respect to a wood track. I can understand having some concern but I've seen some very old tracks still in useable shape with many years of outright abuse. If a wood track is sealed properly, and assuming reasonable storage, I wouldn't expect any problems. If you intend to go with a timed race method with lane rotation. this will help with most concerns about lane variations. I would be inclined to refinish and refine the existing track...unless it's so abused it's not worth the effort.

Ideally, it's great if you have a pack that can raise some serious funds and buy a new track and timer...is this an option for your pack? It is sometimes hard to convince members to spend a large amount of money for something used once a year. (They might not recognize a long term need.)

[dknowles67]

Are there any specific problems with the track?

I believe the track is the same one we've been using the last five years. It was not new when my son first joined the pack. It does not have any obvious flaws, but I admit I could not get a real good look - it was roped off, and there were always boys crowded around the track. From observing the races at the finish line, I have some concerns. Two nearly equal cars will finish close in one race, and when the lanes are swapped, one will win by a good margin. I'm not sure if the inequity is in the joints, the starting mechanism, the center rail, or the smoothness of the surface. As soon as the last age group finished, they took the track down in a hurry. I could probably arrange to inspect the track further, but I don't have ready access to it.

Ideally, it's great if you have a pack that can raise some serious funds and buy a new track and timer...is this an option for your pack? It is sometimes hard to convince members to spend a large amount of money for something used once a year. (They might not recognize a long term need.)

We have over 100 cub scouts in our Pack, and it is my impression that we collect plenty in dues. I believe we should have the funds for something like this, but probalby at the expense of something else. I don't have a problem donating $20 or so myself, and suspect we could get some other Pineheads to do the same. But coughing up $500 for a whole new system might be hard to justify. I'm pushing hard for electronic timers, at the very least.

[Stan Pope]

Are there any specific problems with the track?

I believe the track is the same one we've been using the last five years. It was not new when my son first joined the pack. It does not have any obvious flaws, but I admit I could not get a real good look - it was roped off, and there were always boys crowded around the track. From observing the races at the finish line, I have some concerns. Two nearly equal cars will finish close in one race, and when the lanes are swapped, one will win by a good margin. I'm not sure if the inequity is in the joints, the starting mechanism, the center rail, or the smoothness of the surface. As soon as the last age group finished, they took the track down in a hurry. I could probably arrange to inspect the track further, but I don't have ready access to it.

First, two runs don't make a valid comparison. Other factors could be in play. But they suggest that a more in-depth evaluation is appropriate.

I am concerned that the DE race was run without random / chance used in assignment of cars to lanes. This means that someone is making arbitrary decisions about who runs where, and that leaves them open to suspicion of manipulation. Even if they are totally innocent, they look guilty!

There are two ways to introduce chance into the process:
1. Randomly assign choice of lane to the drivers. This gives an advantage to the racer who knows the track's characteristics best, either from past experience with the track or from observation of the current racing.
2. Randomly assign cars to lanes.

"Randomly" doesn't mean that someone says, "You stage first" or just puts the cars on the track where he feels like putting them. It means that a chance element, such as a coin flip or token draw determines which goes where.

[Derby Wizard]

Are there any specific problems with the track?

I believe the track is the same one we've been using the last five years. It was not new when my son first joined the pack. It does not have any obvious flaws, but I admit I could not get a real good look - it was roped off, and there were always boys crowded around the track. From observing the races at the finish line, I have some concerns. Two nearly equal cars will finish close in one race, and when the lanes are swapped, one will win by a good margin. I'm not sure if the inequity is in the joints, the starting mechanism, the center rail, or the smoothness of the surface. As soon as the last age group finished, they took the track down in a hurry. I could probably arrange to inspect the track further, but I don't have ready access to it.

I would approach those involved with the derby and talk to them about helping out. If you develop a good relationship, it will likely allow you to get a close look at the track such that you can better identify flaws if they exist.

Ideally, it's great if you have a pack that can raise some serious funds and buy a new track and timer...is this an option for your pack? It is sometimes hard to convince members to spend a large amount of money for something used once a year. (They might not recognize a long term need.)

We have over 100 cub scouts in our Pack, and it is my impression that we collect plenty in dues. I believe we should have the funds for something like this, but probalby at the expense of something else. I don't have a problem donating $20 or so myself, and suspect we could get some other Pineheads to do the same. But coughing up $500 for a whole new system might be hard to justify. I'm pushing hard for electronic timers, at the very least.

100 is significant and with some carefully planned efforts I would think you would have no trouble in coming up with the necessary funds or assistance for improvements. Donations are tax deductable which can help.

I like electronic timers and once one is obtained or built this will help to determine if there is a track issue. Statistics are easy to generate and can help in evaluating if there is in fact a 'slow' lane or some other problem.

I'm concerned about the usage of 'pushing hard'. Develop a relationship first so they can see you have good intentions and it will help to gain support if a large purchase is the way to go.

[dknowles67]

First, two runs don't make a valid comparison

I've observed similiar heats in various age groups over the last 5 years.
This was not an isolated example. I'm convinced the last 3 years the fastest car did not get the 1st place trophy, in at least one age group each year.

just puts the cars on the track where he feels like putting them.

This is exactly what happened this year.

I would approach those involved with the derby and talk to them about helping out

This is what I have done with our Pack's leaders. We have exchanged several e-mails, and plan to schedule a meeting to sit down and discuss it.
I want to have my facts straight, and some positive suggestions for improvement ready for this meeting. (We have a year until the next PWD, but raingutter regatta is coming up, and I'd like to keep a consistent approach to all derbies.)

I'm concerned about the usage of 'pushing hard'. Develop a relationship first

I've known these guys since my oldest son was a Tiger (5 years ago).
I've made it clear that my intention is to improve the PWD, if I can through my time and effort. Maybe "pushing hard" wasn't the correct phrase here. I probably should have said, "In my opinion, an electronic timer would make the most beneficial improvement to our current PWD system, and I intend to mention that when we meet to discuss it."

[Darin McGrew]

I probably should have said, "In my opinion, an electronic timer would make the most beneficial improvement to our current PWD system, and I intend to mention that when we meet to discuss it."

Keep in mind that an automatic starting gate that opens quickly is a prerequisite for a timing system, and is beneficial even without the timing system.

[gpraceman]

Keep in mind that an automatic starting gate that opens quickly is a prerequisite for a timing system, and is beneficial even without the timing system.

I differ on the "automatic" part. I think a start gate that will spring load open upon the manual release of some catch mechanism would be sufficient (eg. start gates from BestTrack and the new one from Piantedosi). The spring action should, of course, be consistent and not induce a jolt to the track as it goes to a full open postion.

Having a solenoid start gate would be the best as you can take more of the human equation out of a clean start, but is not a prequisite to using a timing system.

[Darin McGrew]

Keep in mind that an automatic starting gate that opens quickly is a prerequisite for a timing system, and is beneficial even without the timing system.

I differ on the "automatic" part. I think a start gate that will spring load open upon the manual release of some catch mechanism would be sufficient (eg. start gates from BestTrack and the new one from Piantedosi). The spring action should, of course, be consistent and not induce a jolt to the track as it goes to a full open postion.

Sorry, I chose my words poorly. By "automatic", I meant "pulled open automatically" (e.g., a gate pulled open by a spring and held closed by a latch), as opposed to "pulled open manually" (e.g., a gate held closed by a spring and pulled open by hand).

[Derby Wizard]

I would approach those involved with the derby and talk to them about helping out

This is what I have done with our Pack's leaders. We have exchanged several e-mails, and plan to schedule a meeting to sit down and discuss it.
I want to have my facts straight, and some positive suggestions for improvement ready for this meeting. (We have a year until the next PWD, but raingutter regatta is coming up, and I'd like to keep a consistent approach to all derbies.)

I'm concerned about the usage of 'pushing hard'. Develop a relationship first

I've known these guys since my oldest son was a Tiger (5 years ago).
I've made it clear that my intention is to improve the PWD, if I can through my time and effort. Maybe "pushing hard" wasn't the correct phrase here. I probably should have said, "In my opinion, an electronic timer would make the most beneficial improvement to our current PWD system, and I intend to mention that when we meet to discuss it."

Sounds like you are on the 'right track'.

Good luck. I'm interested in the outcome...hope you'll let us know how things work out.