GPRM and the District Derby

[1hr/week]

I've just been "elected" to run the Districts Pinewood Derby. I've run pack events before and I guess that has made me the resident expert. The local hobby shop is providing the track, a new aluminum 4 lane. They don't have software to support their timer. I have software from my pack that will work, I tried it today to make sure. That said, here is the challenge...

The goal is to allow everyone to run in the same race and end up with 1, 2 and 3 place winners for Tigers, Cubs and Webelos. We have 37 packs that will be present with their top runners and when the race is over it was suggested that each pack get an individualized print out of how their scouts did.I'm using GrandPrix Race Manger ver 4.0.2 (just ordered upgrade to 5.0). This software is pretty straight forward for pack use, but what would be the best way to set up the data for this multiple pack event?

[gpraceman]

For our district race, we setup groups for each rank and then the subgroups were the pack#s. This worked out for awards and let us print out results by pack.

If you are trying to have one race group and your subgroups are the ranks, then you could use the Car Name field to store the pack#. You could then export the data and create a custom report sorted by pack#.

[1hr/week]

Well, thats the option I've been toying with but I don't know how to create a "custom" report that shows the car name. Also, I don't see an option to export to a spreadsheet in the report viewer. Does that come with the new version? Or do I need to extrapolate the information from the raw database?

In your district races you raced each level (ie Webs, Bears, Wolf...) in a separate race. Then did you take the top 3 or 4 to race for overall winners? That was what I thought I was getting into... but someone decided that they wanted ALL the boys to race together. Help me with the math; 37 units, up to 9 cars from each, P-N Rotation, 4 lane track, how long do you think it will take to finish the whole ordeal? We have four hours from start to finish to include an awards ceremony.

[gpraceman]

Well, thats the option I've been toying with but I don't know how to create a "custom" report that shows the car name. Also, I don't see an option to export to a spreadsheet in the report viewer. Does that come with the new version? Or do I need to extrapolate the information from the raw database?

You can export "raw" data from the Options menu of the main screen to a CSV file, which you can open with Excel or you can pull up a report and then click on the Export button to export to a TXT file or Word document (CSV export will be in Version 6). It would probably be easiest for you to output the raw results data to the CSV file and then use Excel to sort by car name (pack#) then by racer.

Help me with the math; 37 units, up to 9 cars from each, P-N Rotation, 4 lane track

With Perfect-N type charts, you are limited to a maximum of 200 racers. If you are going to go over that, you have one of two options, break into smaller race groups or try creating custom schedules that you could then import into the software.

Say you have 250 racers. You can create a 200 racer chart and a 50 racer chart and save them each to a TXT file. Then edit the 50 racer chart to add 200 to each car number. Then open the 200 racer file and intermix the heats from the second file into that one. It would involve a lot more work on your part since you would need to have several charts ready based on varying numbers of racers. Once check-in is done, you would just import the chart that matches the number of racers that passed inspection.

how long do you think it will take to finish the whole ordeal? We have four hours from start to finish to include an awards ceremony.

It could be done, but you do need to be organized to keep the cars flowing to and from the track quickly.

[Stan Pope]

Help me with the math; 37 units, up to 9 cars from each, P-N Rotation, 4 lane track, how long do you think it will take to finish the whole ordeal? We have four hours from start to finish to include an awards ceremony.

Estimate 50% that qualify will actually come. That would be 37*9/2, or about 166, and could go up to 333. You are near the upper limit of PPN charts. If you ran one round (4 heats per scout) that would be 166 heats, and if you are good enough to run one heat per minute, you exceed 2-1/2 hours. That is a long time for a boy to sit and only get to run his car 4 times. If you ran two rounds, things get out of hand... twice as many heats and twice as long.

If you use "final standings" (points) in the end, with that many scouts, there will be many, many ties ... In one round there are 13 possible total scores: 4, 5, 6, ..., 16. Each of the 166 will have one of these scores, so the average occupancy will be around 13. In the middle of the pack, there will be more per score, and at the top and bottom, there will be fewer. But I could easily see a 6-way tie for 1st-6th and an 8-way tie for 7-14th. Because of the incomplete opponent equality of PPN charts, any of those 14 racers could be one of the fastest three.

If your participation is higher than 50%, say 70%, then you "blow" the top limit for the PPN generator... There is no fall-back position.

At some point, you "close the registration, generate the charts, and start running". Any boy who arrives after that point is out of luck, totally.

Let's talk about alternatives! And, let's talk about keeping the task achievable.

[gpraceman]

Let's talk about alternatives! And, let's talk about keeping the task achievable.

I agree. For our district race we stagger the racing. We have one rank checking in while another is racing. At the end of the day we have the top racers from each rank race in a finals. It leads to a long day for the race crew but I think it is easier on the racers (except those in the finals).

[Stan Pope]

Here's some more thoughts ... If you are competing by "time".

You can take each group of 13 as they complete inspection and run a PN 13 chart. Record times in a master file. Still the same number of total heats, but each participants activities are focused in a smaller interval of time AND you don't exceed the PPN tables capacity!

Since you are running over an extended period, there is a liklihood that the track will change during the day. Expansion due to temperature or humidity changes, track bumps due to earthquake, errant Cub Scouts or track staff are some of the probable causes. You need a way to compare the times of boys who ran in the morning to the times of boys who ran in the afternoon.

One such way is to have a set of 4 "calibration cars", one for each lane. At start of day and end of day and between each group of 13 cars, make a run of the calibration cars, record their times. The average times of the two successive calibration runs tell you what to do with the times of the cars in the group that are bracketed by the pair of calibrations runs. For instance, each car's time could be expressed as a percentage (to as many decimal places as needed) of the calibration times. You can report actual times back to the packs, but you need to compete based on the adjustment times or percent of calibration times.

Aside from the software to carry this off, you need a protocol that assures that the calibration cars are comparably prepared (i.e. lubricated, aligned) for each calibration run. If a calibration car gets dropped, you have a major problem.

[Stan Pope]

At the end of the day we have the top racers from each rank race in a finals. It leads to a long day for the race crew but I think it is easier on the racers (except those in the finals).

Same here ... but our five finalists never complain about it!

[1hr/week]

Thanks for all the input... I dunno about a "calibration" set of cars I'm not all that smart and I'm sure the folks out here won't even think about that. First things first anyway...
I got word from the fella that left me this project (he's in Kuwait) and I apparently misinterpreted the initial program. He has posted a "race schedule" to the County that announces races by packs in 30 minute intervals, three or four packs at a time. To me this poses a whole series of other questions. If I <GROUP> races by the three or four packs and then <Sub-Group> by rank, how do I reassemble the results for awards? Won't I need a separate file for each of them? I guess I could print out the results from each interval and at the end of the day I can eyeball them for trophies. I'm sure we'll have a few ties so I'll need yet another file to assemble a race chart for the run-offs.

There's got to be a better way.

[1hr/week]

Hmmm....

After playing with it a little I see that by making eight <Group>s of packs each with three <Sub-Group>s of ranks the software will gen a chart for each group. When all groups are done racing will it automatically select the winners of each rank using data from all groups? How about overall winners?

I guess it's safe to say that you folks have figured out that I'm a novice with the software. I've done many Derby's in my lifetime but I've only fumbled through two pack events with this software. Please bear with me and my low altitude learning curve. I have 9 more day's to figure this thing out and I want it to be right.

[gpraceman]

How about overall winners?

Just set Groups to be "All" to view the overall standings.

After playing with it a little I see that by making eight <Group>s of packs each with three <Sub-Group>s of ranks the software will gen a chart for each group.

If packs are your groups, then racers from one pack are not racing those in another. I would recommend that the competition groups be the ranks and the subgroups be the packs. This will have all tigers racing tigers, wolves vs. wolves, etc. regardless of pack. Then you can view the overall standings, standings by group (rank) and standings by subgroup (pack).

[1hr/week]

AH HA! You're absolutely right! I had it backwards. But wait a minute... if I do that, then how do I create a race chart for the <Sub-Group>?

Here is the race schedule I've been given:

1:00 PM Packs 266, 271, 570 and 796
1:30 PM Packs 270, 622, 727, 880 and 1055
2:00 PM Packs 274, 651, 735, 1051 and 1811
and so on...

Is this complicated or am I dense?

[gpraceman]

AH HA! You're absolutely right! I had it backwards. But wait a minute... if I do that, then how do I create a race chart for the <Sub-Group>?

Here is the race schedule I've been given:

1:00 PM Packs 266, 271, 570 and 796
1:30 PM Packs 270, 622, 727, 880 and 1055
2:00 PM Packs 274, 651, 735, 1051 and 1811
and so on...

Is this complicated or am I dense?

That is a rather strange way of scheduling things. With GrandPrix Race Manager, scheduling is done strictly by group. Subgroups do not affect who races who, they just allow you to breakdown the group standings.

The big complication is that you have ranks that are parts of each time slot. The only way I can see you doing this is to make a seperate data file for each time slot. Then in each define the groups as the ranks and the subgroups as the packs. To end up with standings for each rank then you would have to export all of the results from each file and combine and sort them with Excel.

One problem, which Stan pointed out, is that track conditions will not stay the same. It may not be very fair to compare results from racers racing at different time periods, since there could have been a significant change to the track along the way. Also, if I am a racer and want to know the final results, I have to hang around all day?

A better way to schedule this would have been like

1:00 PM Tigers
2:00 PM Bears
3:00 PM Wolves
and so on...

Then life would have been much much easier.

[Cory]

That is a rather strange way of scheduling things.

To add some emphasis to what Randy said, there is a saying that when the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.

That said, I'm not sure there exists a good hammer that will drive the nail you've been given.

GPRM is extremely flexible. But your combination of scheduling and output requirements is a bit unreasonable, IMO. I think what I'd be saying to TPTB right now is "if you want me to run the thing, you'll need to make a few compromises".

C.

[1hr/week]

I presume it was scheduled this way to minimize the length of time a pack had to be there. It certainly wasn't to accomodate my job!

If the "Standings" menu would allow <Group> to be set to "all" while the <Sub-Group> is able to select something other than "all" (like Lions, Tigers and Bears.. Oh mY!). I could set it up with <Group> as the race times and <Sub-Group> as the rank. Then everyone in a <Group> of packs could race in the same "Heat" with times recorded. At the end of the day, I would be able to break out the standings by selecting All <Group> and Tiger (or Cub or Webelo) <Sub-Group> and the top five ET's would be the winners in that catagory. Selecting <Sub-Group> All then would give me the overall winners of the day.