Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

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Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by pack529holycross »

I have a question about "excluding" drivers as it relates to using GPRM and points scoring.


Here is my question - if there are X number of drivers, and one of the drivers is selected as excluded within the software, does that mean that the scoring system is recalculating the points to bypass the finish order as it relates to the excluded driver?


lets use X to denote excluded and the results are as follows:


heat 1 -

X - 1
a - 2
b - 3
c - 4

Is the software awarding 2 points to car A , or is it awarding 1 point because car X is running, but being excluded from scoring?

additionally, does having a large group with an excluded driver give any cars an advantage by being fortunate enough to have 1 less "scored" opponent in their heats, vs. those heats where the excluded driver does not appear?

More to come based on the information I recieve here.

Nicholas
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

Excluding a racer from the standings is just that. It has no effect on finish order determination or how the results are recorded. They just don't get displayed in the standings.

If someone checked the wrong racer to exclude or somehow unintentially checked the exclude box for a racer, then the user should be able to easily correct that situation. If you uncheck the Exclude box, then they would get thrown back into the standings based on their recorded results. You couldn't do that if results were being manipulated. Then you would have a mess on your hands (and probably an upset racer and parent).

Why would you want to let a car run at a district race but exclude them from the standings?
- If they don't pass check-in, they shouldn't be racing at an upper level race at all.
- If they are disqualified after check-in, then don't let them run the remainder of their heats.
- If they have already run all of their heats and then are disqualified, you can go in and manually edit the heat results for the heats they were in and give them last place.

Of course, I am against disqualifying a car after they have passed check-in, except maybe in an exceptional situation (e.g. car starts spilling mercury out). If the check-in judge missed something, that is on the judge. IMO, the car should still be allowed to race.
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by Randy and Son »

gpraceman wrote:I am against disqualifying a car after they have passed check-in ..... If the check-in judge missed something, that is on the judge. IMO, the car should still be allowed to race.
I completely agree with that sentiment.

At our 2008 PWD a car that passed inspection was later observed to have non-BSA wheels (PineCar). Then minutes before the race, the boy and his father were told he could race but not win a trophy. He was crushed and has never been involved in Scouting since that day.

If it passes inspection it should race.

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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by pack529holycross »

gpraceman wrote:Excluding a racer from the standings is just that. It has no effect on finish order determination or how the results are recorded. They just don't get displayed in the standings.

If someone checked the wrong racer to exclude or somehow unintentially checked the exclude box for a racer, then the user should be able to easily correct that situation. If you uncheck the Exclude box, then they would get thrown back into the standings based on their recorded results. You couldn't do that if results were being manipulated. Then you would have a mess on your hands (and probably an upset racer and parent).

Why would you want to let a car run at a district race but exclude them from the standings?
- If they don't pass check-in, they shouldn't be racing at an upper level race at all.
- If they are disqualified after check-in, then don't let them run the remainder of their heats.
- If they have already run all of their heats and then are disqualified, you can go in and manually edit the heat results for the heats they were in and give them last place.

Of course, I am against disqualifying a car after they have passed check-in, except maybe in an exceptional situation (e.g. car starts spilling mercury out). If the check-in judge missed something, that is on the judge. IMO, the car should still be allowed to race.
Lets start from scratch:

a racer from a DIFFERENT district showed up at OUR district race, recieving incorrect information and thought this was HIS districts race.

Based on what I thought I knew about the software, I clicked the passed box because he passed inspection, and the exclude button to exclude him from the standings. The system still awarded him points in each heat. The final standings excluded him, but the final standings reflected that the "first" place kid of the "included" drivers got 2 points, and not 1.

Did I miss something in the process? I excluded him BEFORE generating the race schedule, and did not touch the button at any time after that. ( excluded driver is car #102 )

Heat Lane Racer Name Car# Unit Points Place (mph)
Round: 1
1 Orange S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 201.7
Blue A., Sifrit 101 234 6 6 168.7
Yellow V., Alex 2 251 2 2 200.2
Red B., Liam 24 854 5 5 188.4
White S., Kolby 23 692 4 4 192.6
Green C., Conner 6 529 3 3 196.4
2 Orange A., Sifrit 101 234 5 5 172.3
Blue M., Guest 99 854 4 4 174.6
Yellow P., Joshua 22 251 1 1 192.9
Red G., Rex 26 263 6 6 170.9
White R., Jorge 21 854 2 2 188.2
Green D., Evan 9 196 3 3 176.9
3 Orange M., Guest 99 854 6 6 177.6
Blue V., Alex 2 251 1 1 201.6
Yellow B., Liam 24 854 3 3 190.9
Red F., Gage 11 236 2 2 198.3
White J., Williams 95 263 5 5 181.8
Green E., Dylan 8 263 4 4 190.1
4 Orange R., Jorge 21 854 3 3 188.4
Blue J., Williams 95 263 4 4 180.6
Yellow L., Reidar 25 234 6 6 167.8
Red C., Conner 6 529 2 2 194.9
White S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 202.6
Green G., Rex 26 263 5 5 168.7
5 Orange S., Kolby 23 692 1 1 193.5
Blue R., Jorge 21 854 6 6 185.6
Yellow S., Slade 27 234 3 3 187.4
Red R., Henry 12 692 3 3 187.4
White E., Dylan 8 263 5 5 187.4
Green B., Liam 24 854 2 2 189.0

Rank: 1Tigers
Speed
Heat Lane Racer Name Car# Unit Points Place (mph)
Round: 1
6 Orange F., Gage 11 236 1 1 198.6
Blue S., Kolby 23 692 3 3 193.8
Yellow J., Williams 95 263 5 5 178.9
Red L., Reidar 25 234 4 4 179.5
White D., Evan 9 196 6 6 178.7
Green P., Joshua 22 251 2 2 195.8
7 Orange G., Rex 26 263 6 6 168.9
Blue F., Gage 11 236 2 2 197.5
Yellow R., Jorge 21 854 4 4 190.4
Red S., Slade 27 234 5 5 187.9
White C., Conner 6 529 3 3 195.3
Green V., Alex 2 251 1 1 201.8
8 Orange E., Dylan 8 263 5 5 191.1
Blue S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 203.2
Yellow M., Guest 99 854 6 6 178.4
Red P., Joshua 22 251 3 3 192.0
White F., Gage 11 236 2 2 196.3
Green R., Henry 12 692 4 4 191.6
9 Orange D., Evan 9 196 4 4 179.7
Blue E., Dylan 8 263 2 2 189.1
Yellow A., Sifrit 101 234 5 5 171.4
Red V., Alex 2 251 1 1 198.6
White G., Rex 26 263 6 6 166.5
Green L., Reidar 25 234 3 3 185.1
10 Orange C., Conner 6 529 2 2 195.4
Blue D., Evan 9 196 6 6 174.1
Yellow S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 201.6
Red M., Guest 99 854 5 5 175.0
White B., Liam 24 854 3 3 187.7
Green S., Slade 27 234 4 4 186.8
11 Orange R., Henry 12 692 4 4 189.0
Blue C., Conner 6 529 1 1 194.8
Yellow E., Dylan 8 263 3 3 190.9
Red A., Sifrit 101 234 6 6 171.8
White P., Joshua 22 251 2 2 193.6
Green J., Williams 95 263 5 5 180.3
12 Orange V., Alex 2 251 2 2 201.5
Blue P., Joshua 22 251 3 3 191.8
Yellow G., Rex 26 263 6 6 163.4
Red S., Kolby 23 692 4 4 189.2
White S., Slade 27 234 5 5 187.7
Green S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 202.0

ank: 1Tigers
Speed
Heat Lane Racer Name Car# Unit Points Place (mph)
Round: 1
13 Orange J., Williams 95 263 4 4 180.3
Blue S., Slade 27 234 3 3 185.7
Yellow R., Henry 12 692 2 2 187.9
Red D., Evan 9 196 5 5 177.4
White A., Sifrit 101 234 6 6 169.9
Green F., Gage 11 236 1 1 196.5
14 Orange S., Slade 27 234 4 4 190.5
Blue L., Reidar 25 234 5 5 182.4
Yellow C., Conner 6 529 1 1 197.0
Red E., Dylan 8 263 3 3 191.2
White M., Guest 99 854 6 6 180.6
Green S., Kolby 23 692 2 2 191.3
15 Orange P., Joshua 22 251 2 2 194.5
Blue B., Liam 24 854 3 3 187.5
Yellow F., Gage 11 236 1 1 196.5
Red R., Jorge 21 854 3 3 187.5
White L., Reidar 25 234 5 5 183.6
Green A., Sifrit 101 234 6 6 171.7
16 Orange B., Liam 24 854 1 1 189.6
Blue G., Rex 26 263 6 6 164.3
Yellow S., Kolby 23 692 2 2 188.9
Red J., Williams 95 263 5 5 176.6
White R., Henry 12 692 3 3 185.9
Green M., Guest 99 854 4 4 179.5
17 Orange L., Reidar 25 234 4 4 188.3
Blue R., Henry 12 692 5 5 184.5
Yellow D., Evan 9 196 6 6 176.2
Red S., Johnston 102 252 1 1 202.3
White V., Alex 2 251 2 2 200.2
Green R., Jorge 21 854 3 3 189.0


as you can see from the final standings the points awarded include the fact that the excluded driver took first place points from other drivers and turned them into second place points.

Rank: 1Tigers
Subgroup
1c 9 197.3 F., Gage 11 236
2c 9 200.6 V., Alex 2 251
3 12 195.6 C., Conner 6 529
4 13 193.4 P., Joshua 22 251
5 16 191.5 S., Kolby 23 692
6 17 188.8 B., Liam 24 854
7c 21 188.2 R., Jorge 21 854
8c 21 187.7 R., Henry 12 692
9 22 189.9 E., Dylan 8 263
10 24 187.7 S., Slade 27 234
11 27 180.9 L., Reidar 25 234
12 28 179.7 J., Williams 95 263
13 30 177.2 D., Evan 9 196
14 31 177.6 M., Guest 99 854
15 34 170.9 A., Sifrit 101 234
16 35 167.1 G., Rex 26 263
3/
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

As I indicated before, excluding a racer does not affect the heat results or how they are recorded. It also does not affect the scheduling.

All I can suggest is that you go back through the heats for that car and manually edit them to reflect that he got last place (or give the points for DNF) and bump everyone else up a place. Then look at how the standings fall out.

If you knew he wasn't from your district, since it seems you knew this before creating the schedule, why was he allowed to race at all?
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by pack529holycross »

gpraceman wrote:As I indicated before, excluding a racer does not affect the heat results or how they are recorded. It also does not affect the scheduling.

All I can suggest is that you go back through the heats for that car and manually edit them to reflect that he got last place (or give the points for DNF) and bump everyone else up a place. Then look at how the standings fall out.

If you knew he wasn't from your district, since it seems you knew this before creating the schedule, why was he allowed to race at all?
He was allowed to race because he drove all that way, and based on what I knew about the software, his inclusion in the schedule but exclusion from the standings would not have interfered with the scoring of the event.

You still have not addressed my question = Can you explain to me why the system awarded 2nd place points to the boy who came in second to an excluded driver, and increased his points total by 1 point, when in theory he would have been "1st" amongst the included drivers, and awarded 1 point. I have already audited the heat results, as shown above - the excluded car pushed the points up on other cars.

If you're saying that the software normally awards "DNF" points to excluded drivers, then great.

If my instance of the software malfunctioned, and you can show me some mock results or actual results wherein the software properly shifted the points around the excluded driver, then I can communicate that information as a system malfunction. I just want to be on the same page as you, should a dad contact you directly.

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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:You still have not addressed my question = Can you explain to me why the system awarded 2nd place points to the boy who came in second to an excluded driver, and increased his points total by 1 point, when in theory he would have been "1st" amongst the included drivers, and awarded 1 point. I have already audited the heat results, as shown above - the excluded car pushed the points up on other cars.
I have addressed that question a couple of times. Excluding a racer from the standings is just that, from the standings. It does not alter that racer's results nor the results of the racers running in the same heat as the excluded racer. It is like taking the standings list and striking off that racer's name and bumping everyone below up a place. That is all it is.

The software worked as designed. It is my fault for not thinking through the points scenario and its affect on other racers when adding that feature to GPRM. I'll have to give it some thought on how to deal with that scenario. Though, the last thing I want to do is have GPRM alter race results. A user should be able to undo a wrongly excluded racer and do so at any point (before racing, during racing, or after racing) and have the standings reflect appropriately.

I'm sorry that he drove all that way. However, IMO, he should not have raced, knowing he wasn't elligible for that district. But since he was allowed to race, then the only thing I can suggest to rectify the current situation is to manually edit the heat results for the heats he was in. With GPRM, I'll post an update shortly that will disable the exclude feature if using points, until I can come up with a better solution.
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by pack529holycross »

gpraceman wrote:
pack529holycross wrote:You still have not addressed my question = Can you explain to me why the system awarded 2nd place points to the boy who came in second to an excluded driver, and increased his points total by 1 point, when in theory he would have been "1st" amongst the included drivers, and awarded 1 point. I have already audited the heat results, as shown above - the excluded car pushed the points up on other cars.
I have addressed that question a couple of times. Excluding a racer from the standings is just that, from the standings. It does not alter that racer's results nor the results of the racers running in the same heat as the excluded racer.

The software worked as designed. It is my fault for not thinking through the points scenario and its affect on other racers when adding that feature to GPRM. I'll have to give it some thought on how to deal with that scenario. Though, the last thing I want to do is have GPRM alter race results. A user should be able to undo a wrongly excluded racer.

I'm sorry that he drove all that way. However, IMO, he should not have raced, knowing he wasn't elligible for that district. But since he was allowed to race, then the only thing I can suggest is like I have already suggested, which is to manually edit the heat results for the heats he was in.
Ok... to confirm - the software did NOT malfunction, but the software did award points based on the actual heat results, which then were totalled to inflate the points of other racers, altering the final standings.

side bar for future: Is there a proceedure for changing the excluded drivers to DNF points right at the end of that heat, so all of the included drivers can see that their points are properly awarded right there on the screen? If so, then it is simply a matter of knowing that although excluding a driver prevents him from being displayed at the END of the event, each heat needs to be manually compensated for finish points so that the end results standings reflect the CORRECT point totals.

I have no problem with this assessment, although in my opinion the exclude function should also exclude that driver from points being awarded in each heat. I asserted to the racers that allowing this competitor to race in our event in the interest of miscommunications, given the assumed function of the exclude feature, would not pose an issue. I have to back up my communication with a full understanding of the software, and now I have a better understanding of the CURRENT limitations of this feature on points racing events.

Thank you for your efficient and prompt assistance. You Rock!

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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:Ok... to confirm - the software did NOT malfunction, but the software did award points based on the actual heat results, which then were totalled to inflate the points of other racers, altering the final standings.
That is correct. The results were recorded as they were displayed on the screen, regardless of any racer exclusions.
pack529holycross wrote:side bar for future: Is there a proceedure for changing the excluded drivers to DNF points right at the end of that heat, so all of the included drivers can see that their points are properly awarded right there on the screen? If so, then it is simply a matter of knowing that although excluding a driver prevents him from being displayed at the END of the event, each heat needs to be manually compensated for finish points so that the end results standings reflect the CORRECT point totals.
As I mentioned, GPRM, as currently designed, does not alter race results in any way. I have to think over how best to handle this scenario. I really do not like the idea of changing the race results as they are recorded to the data file. That leaves having the software do a bunch more number crunching to deal with excluded racers and then to tabulate the standings. That will be a lot of work and certainly will not happen in V8. In the mean time, I will be disabling the exclude feature if scoring by points.
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

I've posted an update to V8 disabling the exclude feature if using points scoring. That will have to do until I can think up a better way to handle that particular scenario.
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by Mr. Slick »

Great catch of a "fine nuance" of using points instead of average/cumulative times. I had never thought of that being an issue since all of the units I do races for use the times. I have used the exclude several times this year and was glad to have it available! I think disabling the exclude feature when using points is a very nice solution to avoid this situation.

Thanks for all the hard work on the GPRM software!
Last edited by Mr. Slick on Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by PWD_addict »

IMO, as a GPRM user, I think the "exclude" feature should work as pack529holycross expected. If you purposely "exclude" a racer, you are conscously making sure they don't affect the outcome of the races. If you have to back them in at the end, you shouldn't have excluded them in the first place. Put a warning up when you check "exclude" and then really exclude them.

I can totally understand letting the boy race. He drove all that way and should at least be able to see his car run some heats. As a District PWD Chair, I would let him race (but exclude him from awards).
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

PWD_addict wrote:If you have to back them in at the end, you shouldn't have excluded them in the first place. Put a warning up when you check "exclude" and then really exclude them.
Unfortunately, people do unintended things all the time. That is despite any warning messages they see on screen (which there is one for this feature). People often fail to read and understand the message in front of them before clearing the message and moving on. I've had users wipe out data unintentionaly, even when they have to enter YES into the confirmation screen.

So, if you are able to exclude a racer, you should be able to unexclude a racer. Plus you should be able to exclude/unexclude a racer at any point during the race (before, during or after), which means the software should not change the recorded results. Some other solution would be needed to appropriately exclude that racer's results and to properly reflect the results of that racer's opponents. As I have said, that will take some thought. It was my fault for not forseeing this issue when I first implemented that feature in GPRM. :oops:
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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by pack529holycross »

gpraceman wrote:
PWD_addict wrote:If you have to back them in at the end, you shouldn't have excluded them in the first place. Put a warning up when you check "exclude" and then really exclude them.
Unfortunately, people do unintended things all the time. That is despite any warning messages they see on screen (which there is one for this feature). People often fail to read and understand the message in front of them before clearing the message and moving on. I've had users wipe out data unintentionaly, even when they have to enter YES into the confirmation screen.

So, if you are able to exclude a racer, you should be able to unexclude a racer. Plus you should be able to exclude/unexclude a racer at any point during the race (before, during or after), which means the software should not change the recorded results. Some other solution would be needed to appropriately exclude that racer's results and to properly reflect the results of that racer's opponents. As I have said, that will take some thought. It was my fault for not forseeing this issue when I first implemented that feature in GPRM. :oops:
My thought is that any Racer with the "excluded" designation will automatically recieve DNF points ( 7 points ) for that heat / round.

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Re: Controversy arises at the Seminole Trails District Derby

Post by gpraceman »

pack529holycross wrote:My thought is that any Racer with the "excluded" designation will automatically recieve DNF points ( 7 points ) for that heat / round.
Which would mean GPRM would have to manipulate the heat results as they are recorded, which is something that I am not willing to do in the slightest. GPRM should never record anything different than what is being indicated by the timing system.

The end solution will have to compute the standings after the heat result numbers have been crunched appropriately to exclude that racer's results and reflect the appropriate results for that racer's opponents. At this point, that looks to be a rather complicated undertaking, especially if there are multiple racers being excluded. Even more so if more than one excluded racer is in a heat.
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