Link to Double Elim charts?

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psycaz
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Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by psycaz » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:12 pm

Anyone have a link that I could use to download charts to run double eliminataion?

We are running the Regatta this year and are responsible for the charts and like. Not sure where to find one.

Any tips on how to setup the races would also be appreciated.

TIA



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by ah8tk » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:31 pm

Here is a link to double elimination charts for air hockey, there is a setup from 2 to 128 competitors. Hope this helps.

http://www.airhockeynews.com/resources/resources.htm

or a link to some free double elimination downloadable software:

http://3d2f.com/tags/double/elimination/chart/software/

Andy



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by psycaz » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:32 am

Thanks, I'll look at them in a few.

I have some dry docks to cut for the craft item for the boys to build while waiting to race.



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by gpraceman » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:33 pm

With a Raingutter Regatta, just as with Pinewood Derby, you are not limited to Double Elimination (and all of its disadvantages). You can use the same charting methods used in Pinewood Derby.


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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by psycaz » Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:42 am

Thanks for the help. We ended up just doing a extremely strange version of double elimination - at tleast that is what the folks who came up with it called it so it would match the rules. :shock:

All in all, the night went well and most (almost all) of the boys were quite happy. Some of the parents - not so much. But I've come to expect that. It seems to be the same ones always complaining about everything, so I don't care anymore. Only five more months left to deal with them. :mrgreen:



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by ah8tk » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:13 am

Do you mean the ones that love to complain, but never volunteer?



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by psycaz » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:26 am

ah8tk wrote:Do you mean the ones that love to complain, but never volunteer?
That and never are happy unless there child wins. Always seeing cheating when there is none.



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by pack529holycross » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:13 pm

i have been fairly frustrated today looking for a software solution for a asic elimination ladder chart... most of the free solutions are for pool tournaments, or require way too much extra data just to get them up and running.

1. With GPRM, is there a way to approximate the "win-still-in" bracketing?
2. Also, is there a way to pair up multiple lanes within the same heat on the scoreboard to run "two-lane" pairings two pairs at a time visually?

I know that since there will be two pairs of boys racing at the same time ( head to head x2 ), that I could score the winners as "tied" for first and ignore ties to show me 8 winners in a group of 16, for example. can the software then take the top 8 and re-run them in a new round to reduce to 4, then to two, then to a single "finals" round.

thank you in advance for your assistance

Nicholas



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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by gpraceman » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:27 pm

pack529holycross wrote:1. With GPRM, is there a way to approximate the "win-still-in" bracketing?
2. Also, is there a way to pair up multiple lanes within the same heat on the scoreboard to run "two-lane" pairings two pairs at a time visually?
In reference to GPRM, the answer to both would be No.

GPRM was not designed to run elimination type races and deliberately so. The only form of elimination the software supports is if you wish to advance the top racers from one round of racing to another. Within a round there is no elimination.

GPRM was also not designed to split a heat into pairings. To me, it does not make sense to run 4 cars but only look at results for pairs as opposed to all 4. All 4 are on the track at the same time. You see how each of those 4 cars perform head-to-head with each other. Why ignore any of those results?
pack529holycross wrote:I know that since there will be two pairs of boys racing at the same time ( head to head x2 ), that I could score the winners as "tied" for first and ignore ties to show me 8 winners in a group of 16, for example. can the software then take the top 8 and re-run them in a new round to reduce to 4, then to two, then to a single "finals" round.
You can run multiple rounds in GPRM and advance the top racers each time. However, you would have to use a custom schedule or build one as you go (No Chart racing) to force GPRM to run something along those lines.

It is a lot of extra work on your part. The question then becomes, why run such a format? It really just makes for a much longer race and racers eliminated early on lose interest.


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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by Stan Pope » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:36 pm

psycaz wrote:Thanks for the help. We ended up just doing a extremely strange version of double elimination - at tleast that is what the folks who came up with it called it so it would match the rules.
I collect strange things like that. If you can get the details and send 'em to me, I'd be grateful.


Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"

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Re: Link to Double Elim charts?

Post by 3 Cub Dad » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:56 pm

Just to throw in my two cents worth........

I've run the Raingutter Regatta for the last four years. The first two years I ran it with the standard double elimination format. Some observations from those races.

The majority of the boys got two races and they were done for the day. Some VERY early in the day. Weeks of anticipation, days and days of work, less than a minute of total time in the water and they're done for the day. Hard to explain to the younger scouts and parents new to scouting. Doesn't exactly build enthusiasm for scouting, or anticipation for the PWD. Also difficult to expect them to sit around for another hour or two, and be happy about it.


The double elimination bracket MAY give you the fastest two racers, but that its all it will tell you.

The final races can be very unfair and confusing. Example, that I personally saw because it involved my son. He lost early in the first bracket, but won his way through the "losers" bracket. The final race int he "winners" bracket gives one finalist, the loser of that race had to immediately race the winner of the losers bracket, my son. Well, the individual who lost the winners bracket had to do two races in a row, he lost. So my son had to race the winner of the winners bracket, my son's second race in a row. He won that race. So he wins the regatta, right? NO, it's double elimination! Since the winners bracket individual has only lost one race, they have to race again. Now it's 3 races in row for my son. (try blowing those little boats down 10 feet three times in a row!). Most of the double elimination charts only have the "championship" match as one race between the winners of each bracket, but HOW would you explain to the child that won the winners bracket that everyone else has to lose twice before they're out, but you lost once so you get second place??? Believe it or not, my son did win, but I still think it is an unfair set-up. What if it was the individual who had lost in the finals of the winners bracket, you could have that boy blowing for four races in a row! I simply think this is not fair or a good way to conduct the contest.

Without the exact "right" number of racers, you end up having to insert "bye" into all of the double elimination charts, both sides. Again, speaking to fairness, some get to advance without competing.

Double elimination charts are all extremely manual and confusing and mistakes on movement of names almost ALWAYS happen when you're trying to keep the races moving at one per minute.

After I had used GPRM for the PWD, I really played around with it and decided to give it a try for the Raingutter Regatta on year 3. BIG difference. For approximately 80% of the day, all of the racers are still involved in the racing. Every racer got at least 4 races, spread out. Scored by points, and took the top 7 to the "championship" round.

Also, you have to race by den, or in our case we separated into a "Junior Class", (Tigers and Wolves), and a "Senior Class" (Bears and Webelos). Since this competition relies on "lung power", it is simply not fair to have 4th graders competing against 1st graders! Also, the gutters need to be set up at different heights. (obviously lower for the junior group) So we had one course set up for the Junior class and one set up for the Senior class. Set them up as different "groups" in GPRM, and could run both at the same time!

In comparing the actual experiences, we will be running by points on GPRM at our regatta on Nov 15th.

Steve
3CubDad



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