Too restrictive rules!

[Barga Racing]

We just received the rules for my son's PWD. They changed a few things. Such as no axle alterations other than polishing. Also no wheel mods other than sanding the burrs off. No altering of the wheel/tread shape, diameter, or hub width or diameter. The no axle mods is not a big deal because I have found grooves and such don't really help anyhow. Although I wonder if fileing off the webbing under the head is considered an alteration. But how are they going to check the axles. It is pretty stupid to make a rule that can't be checked or enforced without making the kid take off his wheels to check the axles. We also used to cone our hubs but won't be doing that anymore. Also they now have a rule that says wheels must be perpindicular to car body. I wonder if this means that if your car does not have dead on alignment it will be disqualified. My point in all this complaining is that with the internet (which most people have or have access to with the library) there is so much free info that is available that can be implemented with basic hand tools (also which most people have or have access to) why make rules that are so restrictive that the winner will most likely be the one who is lucky enough to obtain the kit with the squarest slots, best wheels, and straightest axles. As most of you know several kit components leave alot to be desired. So I actually fired an email to the council committee chairperson explaining that I think they legislated away too much oppertunity for the boys to "Do Their Best" which is supposed to be their motto, not "If You Can't Do It, Get Someone To Take It Away From Everyone Else." I don't know if I will get an answer back from them so I took this oppertunity to blow off steam, now I am all better.

[Stan Pope]

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Yup, I feel better too!

I have a screaming room in my home just for situations like you describe. My wife thinks that those power tools are for cutting wood, etc. Their purpose is actually to make enough noise to mask my screams of frustration at ignorance!

The fundamental question the council should be trying to answer is "What can we do to teach Scouting's Values and Ethics to as many boys as possible?" The council's purpose is not to find the fastest car in the council. The PW competition is one way in which the mission statement of BSA is fulfilled.

The value is not in winning. The value is in what a youth learns as he strives to win.

If the rules are too restrictive, we can replace the building and racing with a lottery, and the mission fails because what you do to the car has little to do with the racing results. Why put any effort into something that does not reward the effort?

If the rules are not restrictive enough, the competition reduces to a technological free-for-all that is beyond the capabilities of the vast majority of boys and their families. The mission fails because the bar is so high that almost no one is motivated to even try to clear it.

There is a happy medium somewhere between ... somewhere that the range of solutions is rich and there are multiple pathways to success and the problems are understandable by a youth yet challenging to a parent. That is where the mission can succeed.

</pinebox_mode>

[terryep]

Well put Stan. Why not add a set of example rules, sign it with a return address and we can all send it to our local district coordinators (with your permission).

Terry

[Stan Pope]

I am striving toward the goals stated. I'm not satisfied that I have achieved them yet.

I have no problem with anyone adapting our district's rules to their environment. They are "out there" for the world to sample. Some folks have done so. A few others think that they are way too detailed.

Whatever choices they make, I hope that they evaluate their choices in the light of the overall mission.

[Alex]

I agree with Stan, too restictive and we may as well cast lots, let pure luck prevail. Without restictions it would probably come down to a overly helpful father that owns a machine shop and a degree in engeneering. Where is that happy medium? I prefer very few restrictions so as to encourage our kids to be creative. If an honor code of miminum participation from parents didn't work, here's an idea. During inspection the officials could ask the child a few questions about their car and construction methods. Their answers would reveal much. OK, I know inspection time is hectic and time is short. Maybe restrict the questions posed to the top finishers. Let the officials make a ruling. OK, once again problems would be created. If it was apparent to the officials the child had little or nothing to do with constuction, then what? We don't want an ugly situation. It's a real delima. We don't want touble. But it's just not fair that a hard working child has to compete and probably lose to a car that a knowledgeable dad built and his son or daughter entered. Must be a fair solution, or is there?

[Darin McGrew]

If it was apparent to the officials the child had little or nothing to do with constuction, then what?

There's an axiom in computer science that you shouldn't test for error conditions that you aren't prepared to handle gracefully.

Anyway, I have mixed feelings on this issue. On the one hand, you don't want parents building cars in their kids' names without the kids being involved in any way. But on the other hand, the whole point of a derby is to promote adult-child interaction by having a child and a parent (or other trusted adult) work together on a project.

On top of that, I've seen some very capable kids build cars that were thought to have been built by adults, when I knew that adult assistance had been limited to hands-off advice and encouragement. Just because it looks nice doesn't mean a kid didn't do the work. Often, the key ingredient to a fast and/or good-looking car is time, and kids often have more of that than their parents.

[Cory]

Our Pack's rules are fairly restrictive.

Over the years, parents in my Pack have occasionally expressed the need to allow more creativity in car building. With a little probing, however, it doesn't take long to figure out that many of them are mainly interested in winning and that they are really just looking for an edge. Their professed need to be creative is merely a "means to an end", and not the "end" that they say it is.

Before you complain too much about restrictive rules, try running the PWD for nine consecutive years for a Pack consisting of 100 Scouts which is located in area of the country which contains a lot of creative technical and professional types. I predict that a relaxed rule set simply is not something for which you will have the time or the energy.

Many of the points in this thread are well taken. But if we're just casting lots, then why do the same people in my Pack do well year after year?? Are they just incredibly lucky???

Or perhaps they're just creative people.

Be creative within the rules. Or run the Derby yourself and write your own rules.

[Darin McGrew]

I think they legislated away too much oppertunity for the boys to "Do Their Best" which is supposed to be their motto, not "If You Can't Do It, Get Someone To Take It Away From Everyone Else."

That reminds me of one of the quotes in my .signature file:

You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.

[Darin McGrew]

I predict that a relaxed rule set simply is not something for which you will have the time or the energy.

We may be talking apples and oranges here, but it seems to me that many of the restrictions that people are complaining about make it harder to enforce the rules, and ban techniques that are readily doable by kids with adult supervision. IMHO, bans on removing manufacturing irregularities falls into this category.

Our general approach to "speed secrets" is to make them available to everyone, and to provide the necessary tools at our workshops.

[Den_Leader]

Our district derby rules came out at last night's roundtable.

They actually got more restrictive

Logan and I each have built 'rail' cars, which will not be permitted to run upside down.

We did this based on the 'preliminary rules' handed out at last month's roundtable.

The derby chairman would not cite a specific rule that would be violated, and indicated that his opinion was that it would 'create too many issues'. He is a genuinely good scout leader for his pack and our district, just trying to do a good job, so to that end I will not make an issue out of this matter, and our cars will comply with all rules and run with the slots down.

He told the crowd that he had received a call following last months meeting (my call). He mentioned that most of the conversation pertained to wheels and axles. Then he indicated that the rules on those items have not changed. "If you're going to cone the wheels or axles, be discrete, you can clean them up and error in a coned direction, but there's only so far before it's not cleanup and is modification, and my judges will be looking for severe points on either” I laughed out loud! Opps.

Our district, and therefore also our pack, rules regarding nails is as follows:

'Nail shafts may be polished only and cannot be turned down (reduced in diameter) or modified in any other way. Nail heads cannot be modified in any way other than removal of the stamping burr. If any axle nails appear to have been modified, the inspection team has the right to have the axles pulled out of the car for further inspection. The nail heads cannot be less than .190 inches in diameter."

Regarding wheels it reads:

"... Inner or outer wheel axle hubs cannot be modified in any way, other than cleanup of the burr."

These rules are the same as last year yes, but there where entire packs with obviously coned axles and wheels.

"The slots that the axles are in cannot be filled in with any material whatsoever." So all the top finishers of course had some type of clear adhesive (superglue, epoxy, hot glue, etc.). It was clarified after the race that what the rule meant was that the inspectors must be able to visually verify that it is an original nail.

I've got a list of 18 such discrepancies I've observed which I may eventually post, but that is enough venting for now.

BTW, we had workshop 1 last week, and workshop 2 is tonight. Our pack will have more of the light of truth within 12 hours. It felt like we were running the track from the finish gate to the start line last year and it left a really bad taste in my mouth. This year our pack will be on the playing field. But what about some of the other packs that do not have a resident pine-head to see to it that their boys know what ‘interpretations’ are allowed within the stated rules? Last year I vowed to give our scouts a chance coming into this year, and am doing so. As of now I'm vowing to get our district rules upgraded for the 2005 races. Ok, I guess that is enough venting.

[Cory]

IMHO, bans on removing manufacturing irregularities falls into this category.

Our general approach to "speed secrets" is to make them available to everyone, and to provide the necessary tools at our workshops.

On these two points we are in agreement. My Pack's rules and our approach to workshops reflect this.

On others, such as hub-coning and wheel-beveling, perhaps we disagree. Everyone draws their lines in different places.

I would argue that all advocates of hub-coning and wheel-beveling know that some (perhaps most) of their competition will not perform these activities, thereby giving them a better chance to win. And for some of the advocates, this is the primary reason for their advocacy.

The point I was trying to make is this: The people who do the work of running the Derby are usually the ones who formulate the rules. Depending on how things are run, it can be a lot of work to run a Derby. Many of these people put a good deal of thought into the rules, taking into account things other than what is expedient for contestants whose primary concern is racing success. These people don't deserve to be second-guessed by people who aren't doing any of the work.

If you don't like the rules, then yes, complaining to Council (e.g. Wooden Wonder) is one approach. Getting involved and helping run the Derby (e.g. Den Leader's vow) is a better one.

One side note: Occasionally, a Scout will show up on Race Day with a non-compliant car which can not be made compliant in the allowed time. With the Den Leader's approval, what we usually do is let the boy race anyway, but the car becomes ineligible for awards or advancement.

Yes, it's possible that this creates some "noise" in the PPN chart which could affect the placement of the eligible cars, but it's something we're willing to live with.

[Barga Racing]

This thread was not started to complain about losing an edge, I guess it was more to vent frustration because they do not enforce the rules they already had, now they add more. As far a I am concerned if they still do not enfore them then they just gave a bigger advantage to those who don't play by the rules over those of us that do. Our car wil be within the rules and most people do not believe it but my son does most of the work. I cut the car, he sands and paints; I show him how to get started on the wheels and axles and he does them all. I used to help him bend the front axle to achieve straight alignment. This year I will explain alignment and help him do the waxpaper shimming. Any how, back to what I said about rule enforcement. We have always had a rule that says ridges must be visible on wheels. Two years ago at council a car checked in with ridges completely gone. The inspector questioned it and called someone else over, they took the car to show someone else. They then brought the car back and said, "They said go ahead and let him run it." So they obviously knew it was illegal and he promptly cleaned house. When I questioned it the response was , "we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings". Last year at districts I was helping inspect and a car had obviously rounded his tread. When I told him he could not run like that the father became irate. The district manager came over and said, "Let him run." Same response when I asked, Why?. That kid finished second in his rank. So he kept someone with a legite car from making it to council.
So I guess the heading to this thread should have been "Restrictive Rules, Why have them if you won't enforce them?"

[Cory]

So I guess the heading to this thread should have been "Restrictive Rules, Why have them if you won't enforce them?"

Thanks for the clarification. You're obviously in the same camp as Den Leader -- someone who follows the rules and is frustrated because others are allowed to break them. I couldn't agree more with your position and with your frustration.

As suggested above, there are Race Day compromises that can be made which still allow a boy to compete while still maintaining the integrity of the competition. Since you already help out by doing inspections (and possibly more) perhaps they'd be willing to listen to you.

[MathGuy]

It is best to have a written and agreed upon policy of rules enforcement. And discuss the enforcement posteur ahead of time so that it is known.

If the rules clearly (which isn't always the case) prohibit something, and a car is found to be in volation, then I am of the camp that you must deal in TRUTH.

Avoidance is an enabler of a problem. We must be ready to deal with a parent who is going to be giving flak. One must be ready to deal with the problem in a firm, respectful, understanding, and tactful way. Any car, has a great deal of "personal" energy by the parent invested in it, so there does need to be some sort of affirmation of the parents position, but a clearly illegal car should be allowed to win a derby. Kids will only be crushed if they can't race at all, so we should avoid this.

In this day and age, there are parents who want to treat you like a clerk at Walmart when they are trying to return used merchandise without a reciept. They figure if they squack enough, you will back down. If you have the entire chain of command on one page with this stuff, no one will be put in a bad position.

[Darin McGrew]

IMHO, bans on removing manufacturing irregularities falls into this category.

Our general approach to "speed secrets" is to make them available to everyone, and to provide the necessary tools at our workshops.

On these two points we are in agreement. My Pack's rules and our approach to workshops reflect this.

On others, such as hub-coning and wheel-beveling, perhaps we disagree. Everyone draws their lines in different places.

We allow removing manufacturing irregularities from the wheels and axles, but not reshaping them. It's the difference between making the stock parts better, and making something different using the stock parts as raw materials.

So hub coning and wheel beveling are out, because they involve reshaping the stock parts.

Yes, I know you can cone the car body and get the same effect as coning the hub. And coning the hub is something a kid can do with adult supervision. But it's easier and cleaner to prohibit reshaping the wheels than to specify what kind of reshaping is acceptable and what kind of reshaping is prohibited.