District Races and Some Venting

General discussions for car and semi-truck racers.
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Littlejon
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District Races and Some Venting

Post by Littlejon »

I have to vent just a bit here, but first let me talk about how proud I am of my oldest son.

My oldest went to districts for the second year yesterday. He is a first year Webelo and doesn't care as much about the racing as having fun building the cars and such. Well he did pretty good, almost placing and barely losing out to a good friend of his from another Pack (who ended up in second overall). I was very proud of him because he was cheering his friend on as well as congratulating the other boys on their runs.

Now, here's where I need to vent. I was approached by one of our parents who everheard a parent from another Pack whose kid won his race for the second year in a row. Apparently the dad was not shy about his son's car NOT being built by the kid and was actually boasting that it was built several YEARS ago by an older sibling who had also won every single year with the same car. He came right out and said, in full earshot of the district leaders, that all they had done is repaint the exact same car every single year and ran it and when his older son aged out, they passed it on to the younger one. My kids have not raced against this character's kids, but the parent who approached me has lost to this car the last two years and was asking about how this was fair.

So, I go talk to one of our leaders, who always helps out with the district races, and he said there was nothing in the district rules that forbids what this guy is doing. Of course, I sak why there isn't something in the rules that forbids a kid from using the same car over and over again and he said they never really thought about it because most Packs have more stringent rules that would prohibit this from happening (as our Pack does) and so District rules don't need to state such things. I can see that logic, but I have to wonder why this guy's Pack has never addressed it since it is obvious this dad has no problem letting the world know what he has done for at least the last several years.

I guess what bothers me most is that this is apparently a well known thing and no one sees a problem with this guy doing this every year. Either no one wants to address it or no one cares, but the kids who have to race against this guy DO care and see no point in even racing when it is obvious this kid will win each year. It also makes them question why they have to build a new car each year when this kid doesn't.

I am not looking for answers here, just wanted to vent. I am thinking about talking to the DE this week and letting him know my thoughts about this and see if he is willing to do something about it. I don't know what Pack this joker is in or anything, but I am sure someone knows and I also feel pertty certain that the district folks know as well.

Anyway, WE will continue to run our program the right way and encourage our boys to be good sports and support everyone in the races.
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Teeeman »

I would request they add a "build new each year" rule.

The whole point of PWD ultimately is that the kids learn and spend time with adults.

For those who don't dig the competitive speed aspect, there is usually a "looks" or Best in Show category as well.

Without a rule though, what this guy is doing is legal... but from my point of view it is ruining the intent of the derby.

Try to get them to add a rule and be ready to recognize that car next year.

-Terry
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by OneHour »

T and Littlejon,

This is a hard one to figure out. Not unless the rules state that the same design cannot be used again, it is difficult to rule on this one. My youngest, for example, wanted to have the exact same design as his older brother's car that won Pack overall two years earlier. The design was a simple wedge ... and nothing else. I was able to convince him to change it to a thinner wedge and he made it into an iPod. If the Stan's railcar works well, folks may use the design year after year. We have tried to take pictures of each car as they register their car. It's hard to prove that the same car is being used.

Yup, it's a tough one unless it is blantantly admitted by the parent and/or the scout!

-L
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Go Bubba Go
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Littlejon wrote:...so, I go talk to one of our leaders, who always helps out with the district races, and he said there was nothing in the district rules that forbids what this guy is doing. Of course, I ask why there isn't something in the rules that forbids a kid from using the same car over and over again and he said they never really thought about it because most Packs have more stringent rules that would prohibit this from happening (as our Pack does) and so District rules don't need to state such things. I can see that logic
I can't see that logic.

I can see "ooops, we didn't think of that and we need to update our rules".

I can't see "well, most Packs specify the restrictions we want and then some, so we don't need to specify the restrictions we want in our rules 'cuz the Packs (well, most of them, at least we ASSUME) have that covered". :doh: :wall:

Even if their assumption was correct, and MOST packs specify the restrictions they want (and perhaps a few more restrictions to boot), what about the SOME Packs (ALL minus MOST equals SOME) that have more lenient rules. Gotta like your chances if you come from one of those Packs.

If you want "new cars", specify "new cars" in your rules. Not sure how you check for it (other than asking the boy directly and taking him at his word), but that's another story...

Bubba
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by pack529holycross »

There is one way to aleviate this possibility, and it is to have a Derby Hall of Fame at the District Offices. Much like the Daytona 500, where the winning car goes into the museum, you can place into your program a gaurantee that the winning car will be displayed in the "Hall of Fame". Of course, this means the car can never be used again, eliminating the possibility of re-use. This might also allow parents to temper their wallets, knowing that the winning car will no longer be available for "parts" disbursement. ( just because the car is new this year, doesn't mean the wheels and axles are ).

If that is too extreme, you should consider the second best thing - taking TONS of photos of cars, scouts with cars, and publish them for everyone to see and be proud of. Develop a book of participants cars to help to identify re-use of cars from year to year.

The one thing that I am considering in the District Rules this year is a stipulation that each car will be displayed at the Event with three pictures in front of it - one of the drawn design, one of the rough cut car, and one of the scout painting his car. My thought is that removing the temptation from parents minds will help to ween them off of the shortcuts.

Nicholas
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by sdupont1 »

Our rules clearly state that a new car must be built and no part of a last years car can be used. Now I'm not sure how they would police it as far a wheels and axles, but our pack and district take pictures for their web. The car can easily be seen with the child so that if a returner uses the same car, they have proof. Now in my case, we have had sucess with a particular design and have stuck with it, but my son's carring case has room for two cars, last years and this years. That way if anyone suspects foul play, I show them last years car.

But on the other side, isn't it taking the fun out of building or doing a project with your son by using a car from the past. IMO.
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Teeeman »

We had a situation in which 2 very identical cars were known fast the night before our Pack Derby... for the daddy race, but they weren't my son's cars...

his car was slower, he wanted to build a copy of my cars the morning of the race (possible because they are so simple)...

and he did... got 2nd in Pack with it.


I brought the other cars along just to be sure and show them to our other assistant Cubmaster and tell him that my son built a copy of them...

it was his car the night before Pack that was beating my son and drove my son to use my simple design...

so the other Assistant Cubmaster may have felt I handed my son one of my cars...

why I felt compelled to do this even though nobody else would have known ...

as I am friends with the guy and tensions were running high the night before the Pack race and I didn't want him to think we were cheating him...

and our rules require new builds each year, so we often bring the previous year's cars with us to Test and Tune or to some Den meetings so everyone would know we weren't using old cars.



-T
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Littlejon
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Littlejon »

All good suggestions. Since this didn't happen in our Pack, I am not sure how we will ever be able to fully address it outside of the district level. Obviously the guy's Pack has no problem with him putting in a recycled car every year, even though it is obviously not very sportsman-like. I can't imagine a Pack wanting this to take place every year unless this guy is incharge of the rules, Packmaster or is somehow in control of the Pack.

I don't know, but after this weekend, I am more and more upset at parents' behavior than I have ever been in my life. Not just because of this, but because of some things that happened with parents at a youth girl's softball game and youth baseball game as well. I just don't understand how some people think, but I guess that is just me.

Anyway, I DO plan to address this with out DE soon.

Thanks gentlemen!
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Littlejon wrote:...I don't know, but after this weekend, I am more and more upset at parents' behavior than I have ever been in my life. Not just because of this, but because of some things that happened with parents at a youth girl's softball game and youth baseball game as well. I just don't understand how some people think, but I guess that is just me.
It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but there are just a lot of folks who look like adults on the outside but are emotional 4-year-olds on the inside. When they don't get their way (or when their child doesn't get their way), you are treated to a "NOT FAIR!" rant that resembles a 4-year-old who has just been told he has to go to bed early or can't have dessert 'cuz he didn't finish his dinner.

Only difference is in the words, substitute "I'LL SUE!" for "NOT FAIR!", and that pretty much covers it. You'll even get the red face, clenched fists at the sides and an occasional stomp from some of them (even the Moms, now that surprised me).

But if you want to have a positive impact in Scouts (or Awanas or whatever), you just have to expect it and keep going in spite of "NOT FAIR!" and "I'LL SUE!". Somebody has to be an adult.

Bubba

p.s. Of course, their are a few variations (as witnessed at our recent Council PWD)...
Substitute "I'm gonna talk to Mr. whoever's-in-charge, and we'll SEE about this" for "I'm telling Mom"
or "I don't have to put up with this, WE'RE leaving" for "fine, then I'm not playing with YOU anymore"
or "YOU can't be serious, this (YOU) is ridiculous" for "you're a poopyhead"

you get my point
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Teeeman »

Go Bubba Go wrote:
Littlejon wrote:...I don't know, but after this weekend, I am more and more upset at parents' behavior than I have ever been in my life. Not just because of this, but because of some things that happened with parents at a youth girl's softball game and youth baseball game as well. I just don't understand how some people think, but I guess that is just me.
It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but there are just a lot of folks who look like adults on the outside but are emotional 4-year-olds on the inside. When they don't get their way (or when their child doesn't get their way), you are treated to a "NOT FAIR!" rant that resembles a 4-year-old who has just been told he has to go to bed early or can't have dessert 'cuz he didn't finish his dinner.

Only difference is in the words, substitute "I'LL SUE!" for "NOT FAIR!", and that pretty much covers it. You'll even get the red face, clenched fists at the sides and an occasional stomp from some of them (even the Moms, now that surprised me).

But if you want to have a positive impact in Scouts (or Awanas or whatever), you just have to expect it and keep going in spite of "NOT FAIR!" and "I'LL SUE!". Somebody has to be an adult.

Bubba

p.s. Of course, their are a few variations (as witnessed at our recent Council PWD)...
Substitute "I'm gonna talk to Mr. whoever's-in-charge, and we'll SEE about this" for "I'm telling Mom"
or "I don't have to put up with this, WE'RE leaving" for "fine, then I'm not playing with YOU anymore"
or "YOU can't be serious, this (YOU) is ridiculous" for "you're a poopyhead"

you get my point
(laughing!)



So true and very funny the way you put it.

:)


I've said for years, even told my son that the only difference between most adults and kids is the adults are bigger and think they are more mature... but they aren't.

:)

-T
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by GravityRacer »

heh heh heh...if one of my kids says "Not fair", I tell them, "Life ain't fair! Get used to it!". Then they go do what they are told, and no more problems...mostly.

As far as children in adult bodies, they are everywhere.

The first time I ran the PWD at our District Derby Day, we had a Pack show up with obviously dad-built CNC-machined cars (actually one guy had the equipment, and they all built them at his shop). I told the adults they weren't going to be allowed to run, and one of the guys (an attorney) threatened to sue. Unfortunately, I had forgotten to bring the BSA Derby book, which spelled out the rules we were running to. They ended up getting to run, but they got the plastic medals, not the nice enameled metal ones.
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Littlejon »

Funny stuff!

I actually had a meeting with the parents of one of the softball teams involved in the fracas last weekend (I am the program coordinator), I am meeting with the other team and have a coaches meeting set up this week as well. The parents were actually pretty wel behaved, but the coach kept on and on with the "we were cheated" and "we feel like everyone is against us" mantra. When I read the comments above, that is EXACTLY how he sounded!

Anyway, didn't get to address it with my Pack's leaders last night, but it is a busy time for us all, so I will have to take it up later with them and with the DE. I think allowing this character to do this for so many years was a big mistake and might be difficult to deal with if changes are made now, but they really do need to be made.

A lot of the "parent" mess was dealt with in our Pack by holding an adult's race on race day. The adults can buy a kit for $10, build their car however they want to using the same rules the boys follow and then race each other after the boys are done. The kids love it and it lets overzealous parents do their own car instead of tampering with the kids' cars. Only drawback is some of the dad cars look and run better than their kid's cars, but most are joint projects. That is how my boys and I do ours anyway. I help them with their cars and they "help" me with mine. We all enjoy it.
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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by BigDozer66 »

Teeeman wrote:We had a situation in which 2 very identical cars were known fast the night before our Pack Derby... for the daddy race, but they weren't my son's cars...

his car was slower, he wanted to build a copy of my cars the morning of the race (possible because they are so simple)...

and he did... got 2nd in Pack with it.


I brought the other cars along just to be sure and show them to our other assistant Cubmaster and tell him that my son built a copy of them...

it was his car the night before Pack that was beating my son and drove my son to use my simple design...

so the other Assistant Cubmaster may have felt I handed my son one of my cars...

why I felt compelled to do this even though nobody else would have known ...

as I am friends with the guy and tensions were running high the night before the Pack race and I didn't want him to think we were cheating him...

and our rules require new builds each year, so we often bring the previous year's cars with us to Test and Tune or to some Den meetings so everyone would know we weren't using old cars.



-T
My son likes to keep the simple, fast, winning designs for his cars so we always carry the old ones with us. :D

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Re: District Races and Some Venting

Post by Teeeman »

I had built "Thing 1" and "Thing 2" ...

so my son's was christened.... wanna guess?

































Of course, "Thing 3"...



:)


-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
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