Should Councils ban the use of lead (Pb) in PWD cars?

[gpraceman]

I think all it will take is some consumer protection or kids' welfare group to threaten a lawsuit (to BSA, Awana or any other organization running this type of race) unless lead is banned in their sponsored races. I don't think any organization will try to fight that and look like they are not looking out for the welfare of their kids. Again, I don't agree with banning it, as I feel that it can be used safely, but I think it will eventually be forced upon us.

Also, suppose we put no lead (Pb) in our council racer, yet we innocently used lead-based paint?

Weren't lead based paints banned back in the 70's?

[Nitro Dan]

...the enforcement of the CPSIA statute, which applies to "manufacturers, importers, distributors, and retailers" of "consumer products" (e.g., items intended for resale) for children 12 and under...

FatSebastian is saying it best. According to the law, if you are not selling the car (containing the lead), then you are not breaking the law. And, IMO, if you are not breaking the law, then their is no justifiable reason to ban lead from your derby.

-Nitro Dan

[Darin McGrew]

According to the law, if you are not selling the car (containing the lead), then you are not breaking the law. And, IMO, if you are not breaking the law, then their is no justifiable reason to ban lead from your derby.

There are all sorts of things that BSA bans that are perfectly legal. As a trivial example, our CSB Battalion unit couldn't have had a laser tag outing a few years ago if we were a BSA troop.

[Darin McGrew]

On another forum, another CSB leader suggested buying lead-free shot in bulk from a gun shop. Apparently, it's available in 25# bags for less than $1/pound. I haven't checked any of the local gun shops to confirm availability though.

[FatSebastian]

On another forum, another CSB leader suggested buying lead-free shot in bulk from a gun shop.

Shot, and many other spherical ballast materials, can have a fairly low effective density.

Here's an experiment. Fill a container (e.g., drinking glass) with spherical objects (shot, bb's, marbles, etc.). Add water until the top of the ballast material is just covered. Now pour out the water into another glass - that's how much unused volume was taken up by the spherical ballast.

[gpraceman]

On another forum, another CSB leader suggested buying lead-free shot in bulk from a gun shop.

Shot, and many other spherical ballast materials, can have a fairly low effective density.

True, but I wonder if the stuff can be pounded into the desired shape. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?

[andylester]

Shot, and many other spherical ballast materials, can have a fairly low effective density.

True, but I wonder if the stuff can be pounded into the desired shape. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?

Trying to shape lead shot is like herding cats! You are best to mix it with slow setting glue and fill a void with it. Even at that your density is not so good because balls don't stack too tightly.

It does melt nice, but that takes us back to the bad parts of the discussion again....

[FatSebastian]

I wonder if the stuff can be pounded into the desired shape.

Trying to shape lead shot is like herding cats!

Of course let's not forget that Darin is talking about lead-free shot.

[gpraceman]

Of course let's not forget that Darin is talking about lead-free shot.

As I have no experience with the material and what it is made of, thus my question.

[FatSebastian]

As I have no experience with the material and what it is made of, thus my question.

My comment was responding more to Andy's post, which seemed to be about lead shot. (But based on the price, I might assume that lead-free shot is some kind of steel, like bb's and lead-free sinker weights?)

Ironically, discussion of low-cost weighting options may be more appropriate over in this other topic, since this topic was specially established to discuss whether people think BSA Councils should be banning the use of lead (Pb) in PWD cars?

[gpraceman]

Ironically, discussion of low-cost weighting options may be more appropriate over in this other topic, since this topic was specially established to discuss whether people think BSA Councils should be banning the use of lead (Pb) in PWD cars?

I guess that I am forgetting just which thread that I am posting to.

[Rukkian]

I am actually part of a pack in that council and see no real problem with the ban. Minnesota has been working to try and eliminate lead due to pollution when people put it in landfills, etc. While there are possible issues with handling, I think it more comes down to polluting the environment.

[Darin McGrew]

Ironically, discussion of low-cost weighting options may be more appropriate over in this other topic

I'll confine my reply there then...

[FatSebastian]

Minnesota has been working to try and eliminate lead due to pollution when people put it in landfills, etc. While there are possible issues with handling, I think it more comes down to polluting the environment.

That is a fair point, although that is not the reason cited for the ban at the Northern Star Council.

Instead of banning its use then, can your council contact a metal recycler and offer a lead-waste collection program coincident with your Pinewood Derby? That would address the environmental concerns and promote Scouting goodwill into the community. (It also would not unfairly discriminate against those who do not feel they can afford tungsten and tungsten-based lead substitute, or don't know about it or how to get it.)

An Eagle project waiting to happen?

[Go Bubba Go]

No.

We do provide Safety precautions to our Adults and Scouts as part of conducting workshops and discussing the event at our Pack meeting, but I really don't think we need to get into the restriction business for materials that can be used with relatively low risk.

I would rather talk to the boys about using all kinds of materials (Lead, Super Glue, Spray Paints, not to mention the power tools) and take the opportunity to discuss with them how to identify the risks (often boils down to reading the label) and act accordingly (well vented areas, safety glasses, washing hands, etc.).

I might think differently if we supplied lead with the kits (it could end up lots of places beside the car...), but what materials they select for weight, paint, etc. are up to them (although most rules do exclude "toxic materials", "liquids", and sometimes Mercury by name).

I'm tempted to rant about the Nanny state, the fact that we're trying to shepherd little boys into becoming responsible adult men (talk about your high risk activity), etc., etc., but I'll stop before I open the flood gates.

And, of course, it would present some interesting inspection / enforcement issues - esp. with alloys.

Mass spectrometer, anyone?

Bubba