Should Councils ban the use of lead (Pb) in PWD cars?

[FatSebastian]

Over on this topic, it was noted that the Northern Star Council rules have proposed banning the use of lead starting next year in all Pinewood Derby cars "due to the toxicity of the material". It has been suggested that the change of rule is required due to the enactment of the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act of 2008.

Do you think that the use of lead the PWD environment is enough of a health risk that Councils should ban its use?

Do you think the CPSIA applies to homemade PWD cars?

[Darin McGrew]

Over on this topic, it was noted that the Northern Star Council rules have proposed banning the use of lead starting next year in all Pinewood Derby cars "due to the toxicity of the material".

This seems like the kind of thing that could be easily abused. What happens when someone accuses you of using lead to weight your car, but your weight is fully enclosed and impossible to inspect/test in a non-destructive way?

[sporty]

the scouts do not sell lead, the vendors do.

it's up to the parent and child to decide that.

however, even though its not part of the kit, since they got in some big trouble over the badges and stuff having lead in it, that they were selling from china land.

they could ask for it to be painted or covered.

I say let it be used, but however, the government is going to decide and thats also gonna dictate how the insurance companies deal with it.

Some of that is more about cracking down on the flood of cheap imports into the usa. during the down turn here.

[gpraceman]

I added a new option to the poll. "Like it or not, it will inevitably be banned".

Personally, I feel that lead can be used safely in these cars, but I feel that the tide is too strong and that a ban will eventually be forced upon us. In the electronics industry, there is a strong movement to eliminate lead. Same is true with ammo. Of course, there is the issue with eliminating lead in toys. And the list goes on...

[FatSebastian]

The purpose of the poll question was not to gauge whether we think lead (Pb) will be eventually banned, but whether it should it be banned. Before the moderator's edit, 80% (8/10) thought that councils should not ban lead (Pb).

If you voted before, you may want to do it again, as previous votes were apparently cleared by the moderator's edit.

[gpraceman]

If you voted before, you may want to do it again, as your previous vote was apparently cleared by the moderator's edit.

Sorry about that. That was unexpected.

[Darin McGrew]

I agree with FatSebastian. The new option muddles two independent questions: should lead be banned, and will lead be banned. Yes, I think it is inevitable that lead will be banned given the current social/political climate, but no, I don't think it should be banned.

Are there ways to use lead unsafely? Sure. But there are ways to use saws, sanders, drill presses, spray paint, and adhesives unsafely too. Are they next?

Anyway, I'll probably start looking for a reasonably priced supply of bismuth/tin again. Of course, now that lead tire weights are banned in California, eventually the recycled tire weights we've been using will be lead free.

Or maybe CSB will stop routing a slot in the bottom of the block for weight. The slots are really convenient for pouring molten metal as weight, but they make it more difficult to use some of the alternatives (e.g., pennies in 3/4" holes).

[Pinewood Daddy]

I use surplus carbide insert I got from work, but add the last 0.1 ounce with lead tape.

[FatSebastian]

The new option muddles two independent questions: should lead be banned, and will lead be banned.

Thanks Darin. Additionally, the original question was whether BSA Councils should be writing rules banning lead (which is different than state or federal authorities).

I say let it be used, but however, the government is going to decide and thats also gonna dictate how the insurance companies deal with it.

Yes, I think it is inevitable that lead will be banned given the current social/political climate, but no, I don't think it should be banned.

Does anyone's understanding of the enforcement of the CPSIA statute, which applies to "manufacturers, importers, distributors, and retailers" of "consumer products" (e.g., items intended for resale) for children 12 and under seem to justify bans by BSA Councils? (Also note that used toys are apparently exempted.)

[azgreg]

Another question. Is a BSA Pinewood car a toy or a craft?

[gpraceman]

I agree with FatSebastian. The new option muddles two independent questions: should lead be banned, and will lead be banned. Yes, I think it is inevitable that lead will be banned given the current social/political climate, but no, I don't think it should be banned.

Well, I'm not going to mess with the poll again, so as not to lose the current votes. Still, I think it's a relevant point of view.

(Also note that used toys are apparently exempted.)

I'm not so sure that you can call completed cars, "used toys". Sure, some people sell their cars after their race, but many of the online sellers make them specifically to sell them. There are also those that sell pre-weighted kits. Those certainly are not "used".

[idpwdnut]

If we follow the line of reasoning, lets also ban the use of certian types of paint, the fumes from paint can be very damaging, not to mention that many people use paints for huffing. While were at it, lets ban powdered graphite and graphite/moly blends. Breathing the particulate matter from powdered lubricants is not good. We shouldn't allow them to sand the wood blocks either, EPA has posted letters on the hazardous of breathing sawdust on job sites. Where does it end?

After reading the original thread about the messes that it leaves, I can attest to this. I rent a track out where we come and set up the whole thing: track, sensors, computer race management, 8' x 6' project scan, etc. I have done 12 races just this year. Last night I did a race for a local pack and will never go back to them. The left such a mess of my equipment. Scale, Go/No Go Box full of shavings of wood, lead, graphite, and white teflon powder. Kids would stop playing basketball even though we asked them not to, and finally one ball bounced over flagging landing on the brake and almost hitting the sensor.

The lead in and of itself is not the issue, nor do the boys leave the huge mess at the check in table, it is the parents. The problems last night all came from parents, not the boys. Today, there are rarely any consequences when things like this happen. Well, this pack will have one. I will not take my equipment back to them

We have built car where the lead has been completely encapsulated, we have also done that with tungsten, so have will the rule be enforced. Will I need to take pictures of each step in the building process and bring them to race check in's with us? Our cars are always under weight and we always add weight at check in, tungsten bb or putty. It is not that difficult

Back to the subject at hand, this ban will just lead to another item wanting to be ban, and then more restrictive no sense regulations. Again, how is it enforced? If a rule can't be reasonably enforced with out subjective judgements, that rule needs to be seriously reviewed. Lead should not be banned from pinewood derby.

[Darin McGrew]

Another question. Is a BSA Pinewood car a toy or a craft?

Good question. I don't consider derby cars to be toys, except in the most general sense. ("The only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys.") I don't consider the materials or tools used to build derby cars toys, except for incidental cases like toys that are attached to the derby car as decorations.

But don't get too hung up on the "toy" vs "craft" distinction. The language uses the phrase "consumer products intended for children" which probably covers both. And while it could be argued that a homemade derby car is not a "consumer product intended for children", I think it's hard to make the same case for weights sold in the derby section of the store. Those are clearly consumer products, and they're clearly intended for a craft for children.

[gpraceman]

Another question. Is a BSA Pinewood car a toy or a craft?

Good question. I guess that will ultimately be for the lawyers and courts to decide.

[FatSebastian]

Another question. Is a BSA Pinewood car a toy or a craft?

But don't get too hung up on the "toy" vs "craft" distinction. The language uses the phrase "consumer products intended for children" which probably covers both.

Here is the repaired link regarding "used toys" which basically notes that used children's products (not just toys) do not necessarily need to be certified as meeting federal standards by their reseller. My intention for noting this citation was to further hint at the limited scope and applicability of the CPSIA law, highlighting its potential irrelevance to BSA Councils. BSA Councils are not reselling the cars being raced, but even if they were it seems they might not be liable for certifying that the cars met any level of lead safety.

Also, suppose we put no lead (Pb) in our council racer, yet we innocently used lead-based paint? That's seemingly more hazardous than having lead sealed inside the body and certainly violates the spirit of the CPSIA law, yet it would be practically impossible to detect by ordinary Council inspection.

And while it could be argued that a homemade derby car is not a "consumer product intended for children", I think it's hard to make the same case for weights sold in the derby section of the store.

Another great point. The law clearly applies to vendors, but does it apply to families participating in Council races? I wonder if retail vendors who also write rules for BSA Council events (because of their active involvement in the hobby) might get confused about the scope of rules that govern their businesses when they put on their Scouter hats?