Graphite pads via water?

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beakerboysracing
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

psycaz wrote:I messed up the quoting from Fast Seb. Sorry about that.
FatSebastian wrote: To quote Teeeman:I am doubting that anyone who might be in a position to overturn the DQ's is following this topic anymore, if they ever were. If so, enjoy your horse pulp. ;)

Then they are doing a disservice to the scouts they are supposed to be leading IMHO.

If you ask for help/information, you should see it through. Even if that help isn't enough to start with to help with your decision but then later you get enough information to help, you, should you just ignore it?

How much work is there to really follow this thread. I mean the person who started it is in a position to help that boy. It's not like Teeman is a newcomer and first timer poster here.

There is at least one other person involved in that also was posting in the thread.
Yes, and that dis-service goes against the Scout oath, law, motto, and slogan that we are suppose to be teaching these boys,IMHO.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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I didn't think I was chewing on Teeman's backside. :?


Being completely honest, Teeman asked for information, folks were and are trying to add what they know. He has repeated posts in the thread saying that he is just looking for additional information if the clumps can form naturally, not folks opinions on what the rules are.

If he is asking for that data, how am I chewing on him posting what I have seen. Others are trying to post that they too have been able to get those clumps naturally. That is the exact information that Teeman was asking for. Some may not like what Beaker posted completely, but that doesn't preclude the fact that he did tell how he has formed those clumps in the past - that is information that Teeman was looking for.

The other person seems to have been under the impression that cheating was involved since they weren't able to recreate the pads themselves, not Teeman. I presume that person had some input into the decision to uphold the dq's since he reported his findings ( by the way, he didn't do what the dad in question did to create said "pads"), not Teeman and are having an input with the new rules. They also state they feel the officials are vindicated due to his not being able to recreate the issue.

The other person seems content with the rules being changed for next year and wants the issue to die quickly. That does nothing for the boy who may not have, and seemingly hasn't cheated.

Taking Teeman completely out of this for a minute or two, it honestly does seem like that the official may have gone into the teardown expecting to find something wrong going by the post from the dad of the boy we are talking about. viewtopic.php?p=51915#p51915

The dad was even accused of cheating last year and having gotten away with it. Paraphrasing from the dad's later posts.

As to why to continue the discussion. Maybe, since the officials involveld were so keen on using Doc Jobe's book as a reference that the only way to form those clumps was to use water, maybe they will be willing to listen and maybe award another trophy to the boy that they aren't sure cheated if enough evidence is provided that it can happen naturally.

Is wanting a boy to be vindicated such a horrible idea if there is any doubt that he cheated?

Shouldn't any level of doubt be good enough to not dq a boy?
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gpraceman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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Yes, and I believe that people have already chimed in that this can happen in an inadvertent fashion. If someone wishes to throw more confirmation into the discussion that is fine, confirm away. It just seems that Teeeman and rpcarpe are being called out to change the outcome when they are not in the position to do so.

Personally, I do think that the race chairman called things wrong. That started way back with implementing an unenforceable rule. But is jumping up and down more in this thread really going to change the DQ's? I have my doubts on that. I don't think the DE or race chairman for that district is monitoring this thread, so IMO it would be more constructive to give the feedback directly to the DE. We can scream about it all we want here, but I don't think it will do any further good.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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But we have no contact info for the DE. Maybe if we did, we could point him to this thread to let them know that it is possible.

If Teeman or rpcarpe would like to post their contact info, I'm sure they would get some comments on it. Problem is I'm not positive it would all just relate to the feasibility of the pads forming naturally.

If we can get enough actual information in the thread, maybe it would be enough to prompt either Teeman or rpcarpe to have them take a look and reconsider their ruling.

Sitting idly by and by and just ignoring the information that is trying to be provided does nothing does it?

Again, I am not trying to get into the whole post race tear down part - just the facts that may help them understand how pads can happen.

To me, too much reliance and importance is being placed on Doc Jobe's book. Just because something is in there, it is being taken as gospel. He may have found one way those pads can be formed, but there are others. If we can get that information out there, maybe it's something that can be relayed to the DE.

As you can tell, I honestly think one boy was done wrong. Is it so bad to want to see it corrected? Wasn't that the whole point of this thread anyways?
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FatSebastian
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

psycaz wrote:As to why to continue the discussion. Maybe, since the officials involveld were so keen on using Doc Jobe's book as a reference that the only way to form those clumps was to use water...
psycaz wrote:To me, too much reliance and importance is being placed on Doc Jobe's book.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, Jobe's book does not address the use of water + graphite, just silicone oil + graphite, and then it is shown to disperse clumps. My point was that Jobe's book seemed to support the notion that "clumps" naturally occur when using a lot of dry graphite.
psycaz wrote:That does nothing for the boy who may not have, and seemingly hasn't cheated. [...] Shouldn't any level of doubt be good enough to not dq a boy?
I see it like a trial where guilt was proven beyond a reasonable account to the jury, but not necessarily to those outside the courtroom. We may have doubts based on the "reported evidence" available in this topic (much of which is 2nd or 3rd hand), but based on the final verdict, the committee that upheld the DQ apparently had no reasonable doubts.
Last edited by FatSebastian on Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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FatSebastian wrote:
psycaz wrote:As to why to continue the discussion. Maybe, since the officials involveld were so keen on using Doc Jobe's book as a reference that the only way to form those clumps was to use water...
psycaz wrote:To me, too much reliance and importance is being placed on Doc Jobe's book.
Just so there's no misunderstanding, Jobe's book does not address the use of water + graphite, just silicone oil+ graphite, and then it is shown to disperse clumps. My point was that Jobe's book seemed to support the notion that "clumps" naturally occur when using a lot of dry graphite.
psycaz wrote:That does nothing for the boy who may not have, and seemingly hasn't cheated. [...] Shouldn't any level of doubt be good enough to not dq a boy?
I see it like a trial where guilt was proven beyond a reasonable account to the jury, but not necessarily to those outside the courtroom. We may have doubts based on the "evidence" available in this topic (much of which is 2nd or 3rd hand), but based on the final verdict, the committee that upheld the DQ apparently had no doubts.
I see it as aa boy who was convicted before the trial started.

They state that they were looking at pictures from the book and they compared to what they saw. That is using the book to convict.

As for the whole 2009 wheel thing. Our district used the new wheels this year - there was only ONE boy who broke the 3 second barrier all 6 runs. Only three other boys broke 3 for a run, maybe two. Outside of that one boy, times were pretty much the same as last year. They should have been much lower from what everyone thought. So did the one boy cheat, or did the others just not get the advantage they were expecting? For the record, I know the boy didn't cheat - he was from our pack. Watched him do a ton of the work on his car, as well as help most every boy who came to the work shop work on their wheels.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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psycaz wrote:They state that they were looking at pictures from the book and they compared to what they saw. That is using the book to convict.
:? My impression was that a book was seemingly pulled out to answer Frank's asking "the race official what a graphite pad was." (I honestly didn't know what a graphite pad was supposed to be until well into the start of this topic, and also needed Jobe's book to understand what was being discussed.) This illustration was apparently presented to Frank after the decision had already been made to DQ ("convict").

I am not defending the official's use of Jobe's book in this circumstance - quite the opposite: if the official said that the wheel "looked like the illustration of the one treated with something other than dry powdered graphite" and showed Jobe's illustration of a "graphite pad", then the official said something very incorrect. Jobe's book describes and illustrates a "graphite pad" or "clump" as resulting from a process that involves only dry lubricant. However, turn the page and there is another illustration of the effects of a silicone oil + graphite mixture, but that is not described as a "clump" or "pad"...

I simply don't know what was shown to Frank exactly, nor do I even know that it was Jobe's book that was being referenced (Frank just said "a book"), nor do I know what the official actually saw in the wheel bore. Therefore, I am not debating any position for or against DQ. Rather, I was just trying to clarify for those who don't have the book what the book actually contains: Jobe's illustration supports the idea that dry graphite can form clumps naturally and without the aid of liquid, a fact that BBR had observed and reported earlier.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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psycaz wrote:But we have no contact info for the DE. Maybe if we did, we could point him to this thread to let them know that it is possible.
Well, it is not too hard to dig up, as Teeeman earlier posted the name of his district and what council it was in.

http://www.iscout.us/Talakto/Talakto%20Contacts.html
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pwrd by tungsten
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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:D :D :D
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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gpraceman wrote:
psycaz wrote:But we have no contact info for the DE. Maybe if we did, we could point him to this thread to let them know that it is possible.
Well, it is not too hard to dig up, as Teeeman earlier posted the name of his district and what council it was in.

http://www.iscout.us/Talakto/Talakto%20Contacts.html
I guess I'll be sending an email later then unless there is a request not to.

Would someone care to pm me a real name to use as to how I know about the issue, since I am not in that district?

Using Teeman or the other screen names from here will mean nothing to the DE.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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gpraceman wrote:
psycaz wrote:But we have no contact info for the DE. Maybe if we did, we could point him to this thread to let them know that it is possible.
Well, it is not too hard to dig up, as Teeeman earlier posted the name of his district and what council it was in.

http://www.iscout.us/Talakto/Talakto%20Contacts.html
I will send my email, but are you trying to tell me that it will mean more coming from someone who lives in Michigan, than someone who has spent years helping out in that district?

You don't think they would even bother to listen to Teeman (or the other locals) if he went in there and said" I've been getting more information on the pad issue and I think we may have made a mistake.." but are going to care because some faceless guy is trying to tell them it can happen naturally via email. For all they know, I am the kids uncle from Michigan, lying through my teeth.

But hey, I'll send it none-the-less.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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psycaz wrote:I will send my email, but are you trying to tell me that it will mean more coming from someone who lives in Michigan, than someone who has spent years helping out in that district?
I'm trying to put myself in Teeeman's and rpcarpe's shoes where some members here keep battering them to do something when I believe they already have. You can continue chewing on their tail ends or get the feedback more directly to those in the position to rethink the DQ's. That is where I am coming from.
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beakerboysracing
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

Why not send the email, give the DE a link to this discussion, so he can see it's not the scouts disgruntled uncle, but has been discussed by those here that have a lot of experience with PWD.

You can even give him my name and tel. # or email, I will be glad to speak with him about it.

Just shoot me a pm and I'll give you the info.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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beakerboysracing wrote:You can even give him my name and tel. # or email, I will be glad to speak with him about it.
Well, you could always contact him also.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

psycaz wrote:But hey, I'll send it none-the-less.
:watching: :waiting:
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