Do you hold back info locally?

[jjrssnemjshet]

My problem is that is i see a car go down the Derby Worx track and think i can get more out of it for the child I start working with him and try to max it out.

We share and show all of our stuff BUT always remember no 2 cars are ever alike (even when you try) and sometimes no matter how hard you try some cars only go so fast, but it makes for some really close pack and district racing.

Racer X

This doesn't seem quite fair. This is the same as building the car for the kid isn't it? Tuning is the hardest part and it isn't fair to the others kids they are racing. Sorry, this seems to be the biggest problem around here losing to people that aren't even building their own cars or at least not tuning them.

I get tired of spending hours tuning a car and I can just can't seem to do it. I would love for my kid to at least make the finals one time.

[RACER X]

My problem is that is i see a car go down the Derby Worx track and think i can get more out of it for the child I start working with him and try to max it out.

We share and show all of our stuff BUT always remember no 2 cars are ever alike (even when you try) and sometimes no matter how hard you try some cars only go so fast, but it makes for some really close pack and district racing.

Racer X

This doesn't seem quite fair. This is the same as building the car for the kid isn't it? Tuning is the hardest part and it isn't fair to the others kids they are racing. Sorry, this seems to be the biggest problem around here losing to people that aren't even building their own cars or at least not tuning them.

I get tired of spending hours tuning a car and I can just can't seem to do it. I would love for my kid to at least make the finals one time.

Not at all. We do not build their cars, they have to do it theirself's and we work with the parent and child, showing them what the car is doing wrong, how to correct it or tune it out and how to build a better car for the next season. NOW, being an enthusiast we like to run cars and the kids love it so a lot of runs get made some nights!


Tuning your car to IT'S fullest potential will maximize YOUR car but not guarantee a win! A friend of mine and his son built a car to spec, used a Pro Body Jig and Pro Rail Rider Tool, followed the videos, didn't have time to track tune it and won pack and 2nd in district ahead of 4 cars tuned on our track. The difference between 2nd and 6th was very little, but the car ran very well right out of the box and that proved that if things are done right by the builder you can be very-very competitive without a track.

[drathbun]

I read this discussion with quite a bit of interest. I'm a Web II parent, so getting ready for my 5th derby as a "derby dad" in a few weeks. I also have a Bear so I'm good for a few more years after this. I've been hosting workshops in my garage for the past four years, and I will spend as much time with the kids as their interest demands. Or I try to, the workshops have become more popular over the past two years. I do the same for my boys, as long as they are interested I will help. When their interest wanes, work on their cars stops.

This year my oldest finally realized that my entries in the "outlaw" (parents and siblings) races were always faster than his cars were, and he wanted to know why. I never pointed it out, he just this year finally realized that my times were faster. I asked him, "How many steps do you take to polish your axles?" He replied, "Three." I said, "I do eight. If you want to spend the time to do all of those, I will show you what you need to do." This year he did all of the steps (mostly just additional graduations of wet sandpaper.) Not to be outdone, his younger brother did exactly the same thing!

I had one dad ask me during the workshop what to do when his boy wasn't helping with his car. I told him, "Stop working on it."

Last year my older boy did a science project for school where we drilled 3/8 holes on top of an otherwise unweighted block car. We ran 5 races unweighted. We ran 5 races with 2.5 ounces of tungsten cylinders in the front of the car. Finally we ran 5 races with the 2.5 ounces of tungsten in the back of the car. We posted his science project in the garage this year during our workshops, so anyone who asked about weight placement got to see empirical evidence as to what the answer was.

So in a nutshell, I share whatever tips I can, but they're based on what level of interest the boy has. I've never personally made a rail rider so I don't have any expertise in that area. I think I'm decent at helping the boys coax their creative vision (car designs) out of the raw block of wood, but I suck at alignment and I tell people that. I've probably made rail riders by accident. But anything I know, I'm happy to share.

[rpcarpe]

Nope! Don't hold back a bit. Even when competing against my siblings in a family reunion derby, I coached my brother through alignment by phone at 1am before the race.

Our rules last year and this specify that the award winners MUST share their best speed secrets when they get their award.

We also encourage sharing by having the dens race as teams, kids point out mistakes or tips to each other, Dads get more into it and everybody has a great time.

No one person is going to know all things PWD all the time.

Educate and Innovate! PWD is where the smart kids, hard-working kids and the artistic kids get a great chance to shine. Doesn't matter if your Cub is tall, short or whatever. They get to do their best, and they get the results.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. Back to the workshop.

[tkp]

For us...we tell anyone what they dig/ask for. We hold nothing back as we love to have a conversation about Pinewood in general regardless. Competition is a good thing and sharing knowledge locally seems like the "scouting" thing to do as well.

Like some of the previous posts- we start simple if probed. IE- 5.0 oz, 3 wheeler, 1 inch CM, at least 3 oz or more. If they continue to dig, we let em have it as long as they are still interested and asking questions. This has only happened a couple of times. Oddly, they still haven't been able to produce fast cars. Looks like a local workshop should/could take place here. We honestly have no issues sharing, having workshops etc in our local area.

TKP

[Rukkian]

I am pretty much in the same boat, while I do not have as much knowledge as many on the board, I am willing to share with anybody that has the interest, however, I usually do not start the conversation, and only typically answer if somebody asks since I find I get alot of odd looks from most people that just want that one silver bullet that in 10 minutes will beat everybody. For those, I just give the basics, but explain how much time that my son puts into his car. For last years car, my son probably had 15-20 hours total into it between testing, cutting, polishing, etc, and as soon as most parents hear that, they just shut down and don't want to hear anymore.

[john4840]

We never held back any info from anybody in our pack. When we started out building PWD car as a tiger we new nothing about building a fast car. We came in second one time and all other races we came in last. As a wolf we did more research and learned more about wheel and axle prep and weight placement. We came in 2nd in pack and went to the district races, but didn't even place in the top 6. Our third year is when we found Derby Talk, we went to a new level of PWD racing, by learning about rail riding and other things on DT we out classed everbody in our pack and beat most of the other son and father teams by more than 4 car lengths. We went to our 2nd district PWD and we came in first place. Last year is when we started to get asked all the question on how we made our car so fast. So I answer all there questions and reffered them to DT. What I have noticed this year is that several car were weighted with tungsten compared to last year, there was only one which was my Son's. Several other son and father teams were using 3 wheel rail riding alainment. Our packs PWD was more competitive this year and we no longer were beating all the cars by more than 4 car lengths. So I am glad that I shared the information which help others to get better.

[ciodude]

I share what I know, freely. I have worked with Cub Scouts and AWANA to do workshops to raise the level of anyone interested. One of the worst things is the face of a child whose racer won’t even make it to the finish line. The competition can get a bit cut throat in scouting. When I was in NJ we didn’t have district or council races because it was so cut throat it sent the boys the wrong message. In AWANA we some single moms and disinterested dads. Some folks have never touched a scroll aw in their life. Some people don’t realize how tight and hard some axel slots are and they wait to the end and end up destroying the car trying to put the wheels on it.

I try not to preach to those that aren’t interested, but when people ask I answer. In a workshop I try not to take over, but help get the parent involved in design, some cutting or whatever – after all a good pinewood derby race is all about parent/child interaction. I usually tell folks the cost of my advice is to do likewise – pass it on and help someone else who needs it.

[Nitro Dan]

,,.after all a good pinewood derby race is all about parent/child interaction. I usually tell folks the cost of my advice is to do likewise – pass it on and help someone else who needs it.

Amen. I've been running workshops for six years now with our pack (I run three sessions in the weeks before the actual race). Just recently the leaders and I were discussing some of the best traits of our workshops. Our Cub Master interrupted and said he felt that the most important thing about our workshops is that it takes parents from every walk of life and brings them together to learn and talk about a common interest. Before we had workshops, none of the parents talked with each other about anything. Now, parents get to know other parents at our workshops and this greatly increases the number of volunteers we get for other events in our pack.

I've been running workshops long enough now that our current cubs don't know how to build cars any other way. By sharing everything with them, our workshops have become the norm, and doing it at home is so odd that they don't even consider it anymore.

-Nitro Dan

[Derby Evolution]

I have always shared all information that I can. I have been given info from sources that I can not share, but the information I have come across on my own or that people don't mind me sharing I share. I held three workshops this season for scouts and everyone seemed to have a great time. One of the peope at the workshop said his grandson placed first in the local pack. He told me that all the boys that attended the workshops did very well. He gave me a gift card for food for my help, the funny thing is his grandson needed the least help. The boy was in scouts when my son was in cub scouts, he remembered all the tips we gave then.

I have always said just because I give the information, it does not mean that you can do what I do. I have given the information to many people but yet they are not able to do what I do. Sometimes it is the equipment that I have that they do not, sometimes it is that they do not have the interest that I have. Soemtimes people are able to do what I do and exceed what I do, those are the ones that I hope share back.

[RRS73]

I don't know as much as many on this board. I simply share the basics when asked, then go into more detail if they keep probing. My son and I spend a ton of time on the car during the Christmas holidays. Our race is usually late January. It gives us time to bond and reflect on the year. It is only our second year, but it has become a ritual now to work on the car during Christmas break. I can't imagine holidays now without the Pinewood Derby.

I'm the Assistant Cubmaster, so I feel a certain sense of obligation to share that I wouldn't feel otherwise. Most parents in my Pack scoff and look bewildered when I mention that the car is finished early and we work on it during the holidays. We spend a little time off and on in January tuning the car. We also weigh it often. Louisiana humidity can cause minor weight fluctuations.

Most parents look at me like an OCD parent with an obsession for winning when I explain what we do to make a winning car. In reality, I'm passionate about everything I do in life, and my kids take after me.

[Oddzilla]

I'm always happy to pass on any info that I've been given and have used in the past.

But to me, the things I've leanred on my own I try to keep to myself for now.

I figure that if I pass on what has been given to me, it gives someone a chance to build on that and find what works for them. It's no fun just to tell everyone everything.

Like was said before, the experience is what it's all about. And you don't get better if you don't learn for yourself sometimes.

[pgosselin]

I withhold information for fear of exposing my disease.

There's a grain of truth in this. I built a test track mainly so the kids can have fun with their cars outside the 30 seconds they spend annually on the official track at the derby. But we may never disclose that we have a test track, partly out of not wanting to cause controversy, partly out of not wanting to discourage competition, and partly for not wanting to be known as a fanatic.

Like most other things derby related, I asked my son what he preferred a while ago, thinking he might like us to share a lot more info now that he's got a few first place trophies on the shelf. His response: he still preferred us to hold more advanced information close to our vests, at least until the end of our racing careers. I respect and honor that, but at the same time I answer all direct questions honestly. In our unit, few folks ever ask us anything, though.

This is essentially our position. There are two families that are extremely competitive with us in our Den. One of them is a G.E. engineer so he has a scientific advantage over us. However, we tend to share broad concepts: burnishing, weighting materials, rail riding, etc. I just don't go into the specifics of how we do it. Truth be know, our biggest advantage is that we are willing to work harder than anyone else. That doesn't always guarantee a win. But once you combine a work ethic with knowledge it gives you an edge. Once Jon crosses over to the Troop next year, I'll share everything in excruciating detail with whomever wants to know.

Paul

[pgosselin]

Last year, my son's car won Pack undefeated.
We had a test and tune before the district. We were able to get the car a little faster. The car that came in 3rd at Pack was running really slow... the Dad was about to give up on trying to get it right. I took the car.. made it a 3 wheeler, did a quick alignment and boom, it was faster than my Son's car.

We got the the District and friend's car came in first and my Son's car came in second.



This year, my Son's car was undefeated at Pack and District. The second place car at District was from our Pack too.
They did not do very well at Pack, but after some better axle prep by the other Dad and cub, my son and I aligned the car and lubed it up during testing.. it was super fast. I love helping others get their car faster.

I do the same thing, especially with parent/son teams that are doing it for the first time. During our test night, I had one parent who was frustrated that his car was running so slow. I took it over to a table and rolled it back and forth and showed him how to look for toe and cant. We discovered a back axle gap that had the wheel too close to the body. Once we pulled the wheel out a little, the car won its den and took 3rd place in the Pack the next day.

On race day this year, a grandfather walked in to register his grandson's car for him (the kid was at a soccer game first thing in the morning). They had sanded and painted the car with the wheels on it. So the wheels were a disaster. They also had not polished the axles. I thought, uh oh, this car will never make it across the finish line as is. So I took the grandfather aside. I swapped out his wheels for some extras I had, then showed him how to apply the graphite. We applied a bunch because of the unpolished axles. His grandson's car made it across the finish line...although in last place. Still, they were thrilled and very appreciative that someone had taken them aside and showed them some proper ways to do things. They said they're going to one of the workshops next year.

Paul

[rpcarpe]

My first year as a Pit guy here in Alabama... A dad & son walk in early, we test their car on the track. SLOW and Under weight.
We changed the COM, lubed up the axles & wheels, checked gap & alignment. That car WON every race.
People that saw us work on it were VERY happy to come to workshops the next year.

Educate & Innovate!