Is there a cost to victory? You bet!

[H20]

So here is the scenario, and I'll let you be the judge or voice of reason. If nothing else, take from it some thoughts that may benefit your own packs or keep this from happening at your own race events. My intent is not to go on some rambling gripe session, but I could go there in a heartbeat. This could be a long read, but I feel it important to lay out the facts so you can make an educated response, should you choose.

Background - My family is a typical separated family. My son splits time 50/50 between his moms house and mine. He goes to school 20 miles away from where we meet for scouts. My son is active in several different activities including sports, scouts, school, and church. My son is also 8 and a Bear. Between the numerous amounts of activities that he is involved in, we are not as active in scouting as we were in years past. With only 3 - 4 days a week it is hard to find a happy medium between those activities and quality family time, especially when many of those activities occur on the same night.

Last years pinewood derby was scheduled for a weekend when we could be out of town (an hour away) for a sports tournament. I say could, as it was a single elimination tournament. I asked if someone could register my sons car and have it race should we not be back in time. The decision was that it was OK, but should it be overweight, violate another rule, or break while racing it would be done, as the scout would not be there to make the necessary adjustments or changes. We agreed. In the end, we got beat out of the tournament and everything was null and void. My son ended up winning 1st place in den and Pack.

Fast forward one year, and we have the same issue, only now we are 4 hours away and the tournament is a guaranteed 4 games across 3 days (saturday - Monday). Our race is on Sunday. I asked if his mom could stop by and register the car. I was told no as if it was over weight he would not be there to change it, etc and so forth.

I spoke with my son about it, and the packs stance on it. His response - "If its to heavy don't let it race." Seems simple right? We talked about the rules, and no where in the rules does it say that the scout must be present. He asked why they would not let his car race if there was a not a rule against it. I agreed and told him I would go to bat for him if its something he wanted to do. He said that is all he wanted to do.

So I approached the Rules committee (party of 1) as well as the scoutmaster and told them that I disagreed with the decision. I went into detail stating that the spirit of pinewood is much like everything else in life. You learn the rules, do your best, show some sportsmanship, and enjoy the ride. I cited what was agreed to last year in order to show precedence as well as the fact that many kids drop of their cars, and leave. They are then allowed to keep racing should they reach finals when the kids are not there to service the car should it break. I also listed several other reasons and stated that as there was no rule against it, we would plan on having someone register the car. Should it break we would understand that it would no longer be able to run. I also requested an early inspection and registration so that he could make any changes and offered a couple other scenarios in which we would be willing to work with the pack to see the car run. We even asked that it be run in the "family" race afterwards just so that he could see some times and know what it did. In the end, we were denied; this time the rules committee (party of 1) cited district rules as their basis for coming to this stance and refused to move off of it.

At this point I went to the district office. I found out that the district rules have not even been made yet, and I had a long conversation with the district office about this situation, my thoughts on the process, and the problems we were having. They agreed that this is a case where the car should be allowed to run. They contacted the pack to try to sway them, and the pack stood their ground, refusing to allow entry of the car unless my son was present.

So that's it - no running of the car with a decision being based on a rule that was not listed anywhere and brought up only after I made a request. The only reason I asked was because I honestly didn’t feel like there would be an issue. I will also add that had there been a rule in the packet stating that the scout needed to be present I would have accepted that. After all, its part of the process. Learn the rules, do your best, be a good sportsman.

[H20]

Now – my points on how this effects scouting in general. We know that Scouting is facing a battle when competing with other activities. There is only so much time in the day, and more and more activities are being offered to families. We lose kids every year to a sports team or other organization, or simply because the families just can’t make the schedule work. We also know that some of the biggest draws to get kids involved in cub scouts are camping, and the pinewood derby. How many kids in the pack count the days to the pinewood? It’s exciting and while there are a few that mat not enjoy it, I would say the majority do. Obviously, some take it to different degrees than others, but at the end of the day its about spending time together, building a bond between the parent and child, learning to work together towards a goal (whatever yours may be), and then seeing the result of your labor. No child should be denied participation as long as they are following the rules set forth before the race. And even then, I’d let them run after the race just so they could see their care go down the track.

So here, the pack has a golden opportunity to keep a scout and lay a giant egg – pushing him away. One has to wonder why?

Could it be the rules committee (party of 1) takes pinewood to serious? His sons placed 2nd and 3rd last year. I believe they placed 2nd and 5th the year before that. One would think that this would not influence the decision, but could it? I'd like to say no, but can this be ignored?

What does the pack have to lose, or gain by allowing the car to run?

Since this has happened I have been called by a couple of parents within the pack, as well as members of the scout troop that he is head of. Several have echoed the same statements and noted that they are not going forward into boy scouts because of his actions on other matters. He has taken the fun out of it for the kids, and scouting should not be that much of a hassle.

I guess F.A. Hayek had it right - "The ultimate decision about what is accepted as right and wrong will be made not by individual human wisdom but by the disappearance of the groups that have adhered to the "wrong" beliefs."

[pack529holycross]

I would have someone take the car to the race... I would register the car.. and I would ask to see where in the rules that a Scout must be present to race... given the situation of being asked to register the car at the time of the race, he will have to answer to more than just yourself. I would contact all leaders within the Pack, and have the Committee Chairman or Cubmaster, or other leader be the one to get the car in the race. Sometimes people have to get a clue.

[FatSebastian]

H20, you've given us a lot to read and think about. My short answer would be to change Packs, if that is at all possible.

Could it be the rules committee (party of 1) takes pinewood to serious? His sons placed 2nd and 3rd last year. I believe they placed 2nd and 5th the year before that. One would think that this would not influence the decision, but could it?

A "committee of one" is not a committee at all (dictatorship comes to mind though). Yes, I think that could have something to do with it.

[H20]

The district office contacted the pack cubmaster, Committee chair, as well as the pinewood committee. They all took the same stance - that a scout must be present at the race and registration in order for the car to run.

[sporty]

HTO,

I have seen this before. I also have only seen packs only allow a car to run, if the child was sick, a death in the family.

Most scout packs that I have dealt with, in general feel that they have provided enough notice in advance and sadly you have to choose what event is more important.

I think you were lucky to get it allowed the first time. But I'm sure the reason is also, here we go again and no, this time, I'm sure they are more worried about others following.

Also you have to contact your charter rep for the pack, The district really has no real power and i think most of them, refer you to the charter rep or back to the pack. So you were lucky you got any help with district. Even though they really have no power over the pack, only the packs charter rep does. Thats who you would need to speak too.

But honestly, I have to say I feel a scout must be present to race, unless its illness or death in the family. Something like that. Not so much due to a schedule conflict. I'm sorry to say, but I must be honest on what I feel should be allowed or not.

On the other hand, I feel anyone should be able to race in the open class, if they have one and I do not see why someone else can not run the in open class, just under the persons name who is there to race it for you, but still be your sons car.

Honestly you can try and fight this more with the charter rep, usually the church, if its where the scouts have there weekly meetings there. Not all packs are throgh a church. But someone is the charter rep.

But trust me, it just makes for a difficult place to be. I think I would cancel the other event and come to the pack race, since you choose the other event last year and got lucky that they let someone there run it and still count for him.

It also matters a great deal, since you posted about it, So cancel the other and do the pack race. It seems you have to choose one or the other, but can not have both.

Sporty

[H20]

We have already looked into changing packs. The one we are interested in hold their pinewood derby in March. There is a strong possibility that we go in that direction.

Regardless of what pack we look into going to, we are also looking at racing a car in districts, which we were not planning on before. He just wants to build a car and see what it can do.

I guess I am just really jaded on this subject, and I am appalled at the way the pack is handling this. In the end, its nothing more than a high school clique of people that are in the in. They are in 3 - 4 organizations together and wouldn't cross one another as they know it would carry into those other organizations. So now we have a bully living his life vicariously through his sons.

Like I said -Had there been a rule in the packet we would have accepted it. Its part of the game. But it is not there so what ground do they really have. And is it worth making a scene at the derby over?

Please take from this experience whatever you want. One of the greatest things about scouts is the ability for each pack to be flexible within the BSA organization and determine what works best for it.

[pack529holycross]

Another way around this is to find a sympathetic parent/scout who were not planning to race in the race, and enter the car under their name. If I were that parent, I can tell you my son would be happy to do the right thing rather than allow a car to not race for any reason. I wonder if the Pack also denies Belt Loops or Rank Advancements if you don't go to the Pack Meeting? The Charter Rep has the power to remind the Pack Leadership that the pack operates at the pleasure of the Chartered Organization, and if the Rep feels that it is not in the spirit of Scouting, then it will reflect very badly for them to exclude the car without the driver. Scouting is a safe haven, and to be singled out as "ineligible" because your son has multiple interests displays, in my opinion, a very myopic perspective on what is important in Scouting, not to mention that it could become a source of hazing or hurt feelings on the part of the boys. Leaders are here to prevent that from happening, and if there is a solution that allows that to be avoided, they are required by BSA policies to take that action. again, my opinion.

[FatSebastian]

But honestly, I have to say I feel a scout must be present to race, unless its illness or death in the family. Something like that. Not so much due to a schedule conflict. I'm sorry to say, but I must be honest on what I feel should be allowed or not.

I can understand and agree with Sporty's sentiment that a scout should be present to race. In every race that I have managed, this requirement was an explicit rule.

What seems to be complicating this particular situation is that "scout presence" is apparently not a rule. Worse, last year the Pack apparently allowed it, yet the rules committee didn't see fit to make it an explicit rule since then. The ruling and its enforcement therefore seems capricious.

Honestly you can try and fight this more with the charter rep, usually the church, if its where the scouts have there weekly meetings there. Not all packs are throgh a church. But someone is the charter rep.

I agree with Sporty's excellent advice that this person will potentially be most influential with your Pack. More precisely, this person is known as the Chartered Organization Representative, or COR for short. This person is responsible for approving all official Pack leadership to BSA, and serves as the liaison between the Pack and the Pack's Chartered Organization (sponsor).

[H20]

Sporty - I see that side as well and do not necessarily disagree. Going to the charter is an issue as most of the heads of the pack are nestled fairly deep within the church. In fact, we are the only scout family that is not a member of the church.

I wish it was as easy as cancelling or rescheduling the other event. Unfortunately, my son is a goalie on a traveling hockey team. We committed to this tournament before the dates of the pinewood were set. His hockey team has been there for him whenever he needed them. Rather that be on the ice, or in the hospital. They all made a commitment to each other. So is it right to ask him to choose between the two - or teach him to honor his commitments?

Last year he attended the race. As I mentioned the tournament was close, and we got beat out of the tournament allowing us to be at the derby. This year we are 4 hours away and have guaranteed games the day before, of, and after the race.

[FatSebastian]

Going to the charter is an issue as most of the heads of the pack are nestled fairly deep within the church. In fact, we are the only scout family that is not a member of the church.

H20, that you are not a member of the church may be to your benefit. Most local congregations justify their operation of a BSA Pack as an outreach ministry to the community, and would be highly concerned about any Pack activity that could defame its testimony within the local community, of which you are a part.

[psycaz]

Our district has a rule that the scout must be present to check in a car, but not necessary for them to be there for the race. We follow the district rules, but choose not to enforce this at our pack. Parents can check cars in, freinds can bring them. We want the boys to race. We have yet to hear a complaint about it. Most parents are happy about it honestly.

I can say it now, No scout will be turned away with a legal car. Since I am the PWD chair for our pack now, I feel confident in saying that. I will consult with the other commitee members on any issues, but I do know how most feel - let the boys race.

If they can't make it, they can't make it. Some have been sick, some have had other tourney's like your case. We want MORE scouts to join, not for them to be forced to chose and maybe leave.

I honestly don't see the harm in letting the car race. If it brakes, then it brakes. The scout knows the results of his not being there, but at least it gets to start the race.

I can respect others have differing opinions, not trying to start a debate on the issue. Just stating my opinion on it.

H20, I would agree with the suggestion of trying to contact the Charter Rep. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Aron]

Kind of a sad situation. I would have to say that if there were a rule in place that the child needed to be there then I would understand the packs decision. But as you stated there is not a rule so I would think to follow along with the helpful and giving spirit of the scouts and the church they would want your sons car to be entered in the race.

Does sound a little more like someone wants a better shot at winning Not exactly the message we want to be sending to our scouts

[FatSebastian]

I can respect others have differing opinions, not trying to start a debate on the issue.

No worries, psycaz. IMO, different requirements or philosophies may simply reflect different program goals. In the (non-BSA) races that I have helped manage, the program primarily intends to be educational (yet fun). To facilitate that goal, for example, builders whose cars perform well do their best to explain to their peers how they accomplished this. Obviously participants cannot educate (or be educated) if they are absent! (And obviously they would be missing the fun of the race!)

[psycaz]

I can respect others have differing opinions, not trying to start a debate on the issue. Just stating my opinion on it.

Different requirements may simply reflect different program goals. In the (non-BSA) races that I have helped manage, the program primarily intends to be educational (yet fun). To facilitate that goal, for example, builders whose cars perform well do their best to explain to their peers how they accomplished this. Obviously participants cannot educate (or be educated) if they are absent! (And obviously they would be missing the fun of the race!)

But couldn't they just as well give their presentation at the next group meeting as to how they built their car?

I just think that it's hard to tell a boy that they go the whole year doing everything else, but once the biggest event of the year comes along, they can't participate due to a conflict.

I know of boys who would have missed our race due to playing in their soccer championship. I wouldn't want to have the boy to have to choose, since in a way the date we pick is arbitrary. We just pick the weekend 3 weeks before the district race. Nothing stopping us from going 2 or 4. Ijust want them to enjoy as much as they can. I don't think they should be penalized for doing well at another activity.

I have yet to see a boy who raced a car when he wasn't there who wasn't PROUD about how well his car did or well it was liked due to lack of attendance.

I only hear about how they are happy they got to do both.

Again, I can only go by my experiences and that is with Scouts. Everyone situation is different.