Mid America

General discussions for car and semi-truck racers.
Speedster
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Re: Mid America

Post by Speedster »

TedBull, I've thought about this. Even if they were willing to re-lube your car, I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. You have only gone down the track 6 times. Everytime I re-lube my cars they run slower the 1st time down the track. I know they take off the time for the slowest run but what happens if the 2nd run is also a bit slower. If you make the finals you've got a fast car. You might even be faster than someone who thinks re-lubing is going to help them. I don't know the answer but I would prefer my car be handled as little as possible.
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Re: Mid America

Post by rpcarpe »

Greg,
What brand scales do you have?
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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xanthrum
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Re: Mid America

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Greg Dawes
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rpcarpe
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Re: Mid America

Post by rpcarpe »

I've been getting by with Harbor Freight scales... accurate to 0.01oz and 'good enough for gov't work'.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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Re: Mid America

Post by resullivan »

I am think of doing this and would also like to know what happens to a proxy car that is slightly over weight.
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xanthrum
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Re: Mid America

Post by xanthrum »

This is something worth knowing... and important.

First of all do not make your car over wieght - if you make your cars 143.0 grams you will be perfect... last year on a side note our fastest car (3rd overall for the scouts) was 142.6 grams.

Second depnding on the timing on when you ship things in... and GOOD Information provided - so that we can contact you - as part of the registration process (RACE DAY Phone) - per your instructions if we have to make some small adjustments it can be done... We really do not want to be in charge of making the final weight adjustments to your car... you should do that before you ship and aim for 143 grams... You would not believe the amount of time it takes to upack (keep everything organized) and then repack proxy cars... it is a Huge JOB... so please make our lives easier and be "on" with your wieght -- this is eactly why we measure 143.4 grams or less is perfect... the .4 will not gain you the speed... but is allows us some variance so that we do not have to spend all day teching cars
Greg Dawes
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sporty
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Re: Mid America

Post by sporty »

A couple of questions and a answer / thought to help here,.


If you set your scale to 141.74. or very close to that, you will be fine. if you want to go for 142.5. you are still fine. I would not focus or worry about being right on the 143.4 I dont think that small amount if you are a tad under, is going to matter a whole lot for you.


Now, My question and I asked this before. but I thought a open reply to the question would be better.


Can you share what the meaning of (non pro) adult division is suppose to mean ?

Does this mean, that you are not allowing or wanting the pro racers in this division, because they are pros current adult league racers ?

I had asked you and I got asked again myself and I thought, it was better for you to give a open reply on that for them, then for me to state the reply you gave me.

I got asked, because as you know some very novice car builders and racers are entering and they would feel more compfortable with understanding what that (non pro) actually means and so forth. meaning some are worried, they will be racing against current adult league racers.

Sporty
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FatSebastian
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Re: Mid America

Post by FatSebastian »

sporty wrote:Can you share what the meaning of (non pro) adult division is suppose to mean ? Does this mean, that you are not allowing or wanting the pro racers in this division, because they are pros current adult league racers?
This is an excellent question.

A "pro" (professional) is "a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood; such as a permanent career... In sports, a professional is someone who receives monetary compensation for participating."

While some people make their living by offering products and services related to derby activity, what does it mean to be a professional pinewood derby racer? If league racing does not profitably compensate its competitors, then is "pro" an apt synonym for "league racer"?
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Re: Mid America

Post by TedBull »

I am not scared. This is my first season building pinewood derby cars and I will be sending my first three builds to Mid America, and will run my novice skills up against the pros in modified and stock class. I know that I will most likely place dead last. But it will be a learning experiance and fun regardless.

That being said. I would hope that Pro's would not be eligable to run in the open adult class. I will be intersted in the answer. And further more I would think that someone who has placed in the top three of the open adult class more than a couple times in previous seasons should be forced to run in the pro class and no longer allowed to run in open adult. That might seem extreme but its how some orginized clubs run as far as racing goes.
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whodathunkit
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Re: Mid America

Post by whodathunkit »

Just because I tryed racing at WIRL once with 2 cars.. does this make me an adult league racer?
And if I were to race with the pros at mid-America.. Would this make me a PRO?

Good Questions are being asked about what you would call racers with these classifications.
Take Stan: for instance.. he has been at this for a few years now..
Does this classification make him a Pro Adult league Scout Racer.

Good Questions? Sporty,Ted, & FS.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
pgosselin
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Re: Mid America

Post by pgosselin »

I agree. I'm a little concerned. I want to make sure that my son (in his non-scout category) and me (in the adult non-pro category) aren't up against league racers. That would take some of the fun out of the race for us. This will be far more fun if the emphasis is on amateur racers. I've always wished there was a national Pinewood Derby race for Scouts and their parents and siblings. This could become it if the league racers don't try to infiltrate every category. Let them have their category and let us have the rest.

Also I disagree with the use of oil in the open Scout division. I don't think there are enough Scouts with the experience to use it because not enough Packs have those progressive rules. i'd rather see it stay graphite for now.

That's my two cents.

Paul
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Re: Mid America

Post by FatSebastian »

We are not in a position to participate in this year's Mid America race, nor do we race in leagues. With that disclaimer out of the way...
pgosselin wrote:I want to make sure that my son (in his non-scout category) and me (in the adult non-pro category) aren't up against league racers.
:thinking: How could one "make sure" that an entrant isn't a league racer, ebay car, etc.? As with much of Pinewood Derby, one is on the honor system (following the rules, Cub-built v. Dad-built, etc.).
pgosselin wrote:That would take some of the fun out of the race for us.
Why? (If you can't ever be "sure", will it be less fun?)
pgosselin wrote:This will be far more fun if the emphasis is on amateur racers.
League racers are technically amateurs (in that they don't get paid to race weighted blocks of wood). They are nonetheless dedicated hobbyists. (But so is the council-championship family with a BestTrack set up in their basement year round who doesn't bother to pay postage to ship cars back and forth to league tracks each season.)
pgosselin wrote:Let them have their category and let us have the rest.
Perhaps leaguers would be dissuaded from the other categories if those categories used a different track than what the leagues used?

I think one should expect a national event to attract highly competitive cars in every category that allows proxy racing regardless. It seemed like a fun idea to me to enter cars from around the country as a promotional activity for Derby Talk; beyond that, I could agree with Stan that remote "third tier" proxy racing may provide limited value to most Cub Scouting families. Half the fun is being there!
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xanthrum
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Re: Mid America

Post by xanthrum »

Great questions... and as far the the precise definition goes... there would only be the "vendors" that would classify as a pro. It is a divsision that is designed to discourage the "league racers" - #1 it is Graphite only of which most league guys are not big fans of... but it is a division originally created for the Dad's, Mom's, Grandparent, Mentor... of a person that builds a car alongside thier scout - has a pack race that allows parents / adults to race... and they race in this division... as we some some Adults get uber competitive and it is a place for them to show thier stuff. I know most of the "Top League Racers" but in all honesty there would be no way for me to check every Adult entry to see if they had ever raced in the leagues, especially considering many go by a forum name, race name... The inherent basic rules of this Division - Graphite, and the specs of the wheels... do not align with any of the "Leagues" well - so it is just not likely that "current league racers" will be racing in this division -- It is a Division that is designed for Amatuers... that want a high level of competition.

Ted - I really like your point about those that had placed in the Top Places would be required to move up... ironically enough that would include me. In the first year of Mid America Derby - I helped make cars that took 5th & 6th places... and last year cars that came in 3rd, 5th & 6th in the Adult Open Division - I have never raced in leagues -- although it does sound like fun sometime (if I only had the time) -- and I competed in the Pro - Division last year running 4 Pro Cars -- the pro rules are vastly different and I build a car or two every year along side my kids when we start getting ready for our pack race...this cars are all geared for our pack race and rules... that type of a car would not compete at the Pro Levels... which is why we have the Open Adult Division... designed for exactly that type of a car - build.


Just for the fun of things... I thought I would race in the Pro Division last year and it was truly my goal.... to just not get last place in the Pro Division - I managed to finish in the middle of the pack... as I can assure you the level of competition is MUCH different at the Pro Level than the Adult Open Classs. Additionally just as you all know each and everytime that you build a car new things are learned, improved on, and there are simply no short cuts - it just takes time - attention to detail and hopefully an improved process each and every time... so in a Very Long answer -- the Open Adult division is not intended for League Racers - it would be doubtful that they would even want to build a car per the rules and specs of that Division...

I hope that helps and gives a complete answer to this question.

Truly
Greg
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sporty
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Re: Mid America

Post by sporty »

Thanks Greg.

I did not want to say what you had answered to me, I felt it was you're place. and I feel you did a great reply on a delicate question. Thank you for a great reply.
I didnt want to get into the speculation aspects, when I know you and others have worked really hard since the inception of the mid america race and I know what you are trying to do. and Its great !

Sporty
xanthrum wrote:Great questions... and as far the the precise definition goes... there would only be the "vendors" that would classify as a pro. It is a divsision that is designed to discourage the "league racers" - #1 it is Graphite only of which most league guys are not big fans of... but it is a division originally created for the Dad's, Mom's, Grandparent, Mentor... of a person that builds a car alongside thier scout - has a pack race that allows parents / adults to race... and they race in this division... as we some some Adults get uber competitive and it is a place for them to show thier stuff. I know most of the "Top League Racers" but in all honesty there would be no way for me to check every Adult entry to see if they had ever raced in the leagues, especially considering many go by a forum name, race name... The inherent basic rules of this Division - Graphite, and the specs of the wheels... do not align with any of the "Leagues" well - so it is just not likely that "current league racers" will be racing in this division -- It is a Division that is designed for Amatuers... that want a high level of competition.

Ted - I really like your point about those that had placed in the Top Places would be required to move up... ironically enough that would include me. In the first year of Mid America Derby - I helped make cars that took 5th & 6th places... and last year cars that came in 3rd, 5th & 6th in the Adult Open Division - I have never raced in leagues -- although it does sound like fun sometime (if I only had the time) -- and I competed in the Pro - Division last year running 4 Pro Cars -- the pro rules are vastly different and I build a car or two every year along side my kids when we start getting ready for our pack race...this cars are all geared for our pack race and rules... that type of a car would not compete at the Pro Levels... which is why we have the Open Adult Division... designed for exactly that type of a car - build.


Just for the fun of things... I thought I would race in the Pro Division last year and it was truly my goal.... to just not get last place in the Pro Division - I managed to finish in the middle of the pack... as I can assure you the level of competition is MUCH different at the Pro Level than the Adult Open Classs. Additionally just as you all know each and everytime that you build a car new things are learned, improved on, and there are simply no short cuts - it just takes time - attention to detail and hopefully an improved process each and every time... so in a Very Long answer -- the Open Adult division is not intended for League Racers - it would be doubtful that they would even want to build a car per the rules and specs of that Division...

I hope that helps and gives a complete answer to this question.

Truly
Greg
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Re: Mid America

Post by xanthrum »

So far... we have had some really good Open Adult cars... 2 of the builders which went on to race in some of the league racing... but as I mentioned -- you will notice to date the cars that have raced in the adult division last year were slower than the cars in the Scout Division, and the Kids Division... The Rules and Specs of this division do not align with any of the Leagues... plus I have only been building cars with my kids going on our 4th year now... (since way back when I was in cub scouts... A LONG TIME AGO) and I can assure you with the knowledge and expertise that this forum is full of -- because of the rules and specs in that Division I would tend to believe that ANY of you can Compete with anyone - this is exactly what "pgosselin" mentioned -- it is an event designed for the Amatuer and SCOUTs -- CUB SCOUTs -- SCOUTING and Families... It is really cool having the Pro at the event to learn - watch and see some cars that are made like no other.. Last year when Sporty ran in the Adult Open Class that may have been the closest person to a Pro that to date has run in the Adult Open Division... It is truly our Long Term Vision to keep the Mid America Pinewood Derby exactly what it was started for... about Cub Scouting - and something that annually takes place where Cub Scouts and Families can travel to - be a part of -- and have fun - in line with all the core values of Cub Scouting.
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