4 wheels do not touch the ground

General discussions for car and semi-truck racers.
Speedster
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio

4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Speedster »

I inspect the cars at our Pack on race day. Many people arrive and the 4 wheels do not touch the ground. Axles glued in. 4 wheels must touch the ground. We do not work on scouts cars the day of the race. We supply tools for the scout and his adult helper for any work that must be done to comply with our rules. 4 cars were broken, 2 of them not repairable, trying to get all four wheels to touch. Does anyone have a simple way this can be accomplished at this point?
User avatar
Ickabod
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:50 pm
Location: Omaha, NE
Contact:

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Ickabod »

Our pack always has an pre-race inspection and weigh-in a couple of days before the race. That way the boys can check their weight on the official scale and have their car inspected for rules compliance. This allows the boys/parents time to make any final adjustments before the final inspection on race day. There is a work space there with tools if the families want to work on it there, or they can take it home and make any tweeks at home. It is not fool proof, but allows time for corrections if the racers want to make sure they are compliant.
There are only two seasons: baseball season and The Void. - Jonathan Yardley
rpcarpe
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by rpcarpe »

Does anyone have a simple way this can be accomplished at this point?
Yes, the best way to avoid all the problems you covered; Don't have that rule!
- one wheel touching equals a 'point'
- two wheels touching equals a 'line'
- three wheels touching equals a 'plane'
- four wheels touching equals 'chaos'

Just because there are four wheels in the kit, and on your daily commute car, doesn't mean there needs to be '4 on the floor' for a short trip down a straight track.

I understand District & Council rules sometimes have it. Get it changed and your life becomes easier, the cars become faster.

Certainly others can chime in with the supposed roundness of wheels, the difficulty of putting four axles at exactly the height etc...
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
User avatar
birddog
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 307
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:40 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by birddog »

I agree with rcarpe on this one. Getting rules changed at the Pack level should be a fairly straight forward and hopefully easy thing to accomplish. Use this years experience to get your pack rule changed. How can anybody justify scouts not being able to participate because their skills with woodworking are not good enough to keep all the axles at exactly the same height so that all 4 wheels touch? I highly doubt the 4 cars who had problems had intentionally created 3 wheelers, I'm sure it was unintensional.

I'd be less empathetic if the 4 cars intentionally broke the rule and were trying to "get away with an unfair advantage", but I highly doubt that was the case.

Getting district rules changed as a far tougher task, but as long as everyone knows the district rules may be different, they can plan accordingly.

birddog
Speedster
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:48 pm
Location: Toledo, Ohio

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Speedster »

As I stated in a few posts in the past, the District Executive and I don't get along very well. I worked in the Commodore Perry District Pinewood Derby for 27 years, using my two wood tracks, along with others tracks, for the District races. 2 years ago another entirely new crew came in with beautiful aluminum tracks. That part was Great. Unfortunately, the folks who took over started the "4 on the ground" rule. I'm sure they did it believing it was leveling the playing field. Unfortunately, the opposite is true. The people having problems with their cars were not cheating. They simply did not read the rules. However, complaining about the rules solves nothing. I need something that will get the wheel on the ground without damaging the car. Perhaps the Pro Axle Guide will help. This looks like it might be a job for Derbyworx.
J.Stein
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:06 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by J.Stein »

I got to see an interesting set of rules when helping another young man.

His Pack's dictated that if one wheel was off the ground, a drivers license could not pass under it. This rule must have been a concession to the fact that its difficult for some kids/parents to get all four wheels to lay flat but it also leaves the intentional three-wheelers less room to play.

In Pack's such as the original poster's, I'd like to see some discretion. Anyone who has been around pinewood can tell if a car is set up to flaunt the rules versus the cars that were put together by kids and parents that are -to be kind- less experienced and are just trying to participate. I could not, in good conscience, send that kid packing. Just couldn't do it. If I got any grief from another leader or parent, I'd pull the kid aside with my tools and spare parts and say "We'll be back in 15 minutes and God have mercy on your souls 'cause I'm going to turn this car into a winner."
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Darin McGrew »

Given an inspection on race day, cars that don't meet a misguided "four on the floor" rule with their axles glued in place, and enforcement of a misguided "four on the floor" rule, I don't think there's much you can do.

If you hold inspection earlier, then teams might have enough time to fix rules violations before the derby. There are other benefits to holding inspections earlier as well, but it isn't a simple solution.

If you get rid of the "four on the floor" rule, then the whole problem goes away. That is the simple solution.

The only other option is to attempt to unglue an axle and reposition it. But an event organizer doesn't have a lot of control here. You don't know what glues were used, or how those glues can be dissolved/softened/whatever. And depending on the glue, there may not be a way to release the axle without damaging the car. Clearly, this isn't a simple solution either.
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by sporty »

As you may know, the local packs here and council have this rule.

Sadly there is no easy way to resolve this, or it would have already happened. The sad fact, is you can only help so many and do so much and its heart breaking when you want to see every kid that came with a car race.

Hopefully the inspection time is a few hours before the race. Extra kits are a solutions to offer. but the key problem is axle slots being used. this is very hard for a child or parent with novice skills to get 4 on the ground.


Aside from bending axle for them and trying to tune it to get them to touch, and if you are having to deal with multiple cars. To many to be able to really help.

A hitn would be to talk to the people running the race, if they are super strict, id say suggest letting them still run, but they can not win, just run. Thats the option id try to discuss with them.

The sad part, the cars that are broke, makes it very upsetting and its a loosing battle.

The only other option is a better or more work shops prior to the race. and require them to come.


Sporty
User avatar
SirStorm
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:58 am
Location: Lincoln, CA

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by SirStorm »

Another approach would be to expand the rule. The rule would stipulate no axles may be glued in. If you can't dump the bad rule because of politics, then maybe fix it from the inside.

I do not see a way to fix a glued axle.

Has anyone tried to bend an axle with MaxVeloc axle pliers? And after bending, does the tread lay flat as required?
User avatar
having_wandered
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:54 am
Location: Zimmerman, MN

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by having_wandered »

I think if the pack/district rules are going to demand 4 on the floor, the pack should be prepared to install the wheels for the scouts. Maybe pre drill all the blocks? Make no mistake, I am completely against this rule. The bottom line is, the official BSA kit was not designed to support this rule. Stop with the unnecessary rules already!
~Not all who wander are lost.
Stealthscan
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:23 am
Location: Apex, NC

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Stealthscan »

I have run the inspection desk at previous races and have experienced this too. Our work around was to let the Cub run the car under the premise that thet would NOT go to district or place in the Pack if they did well. We felt that all the kids who had this error (or others) had cars that would probably not be big contenders any way. The kids still had a blast running their cars and were still somewhat penalized for rule infraction. I think it is important for Pack rules to mirror District rules. Our District does not allow a separate car to be built for that race. If a kid builds a car to Pack Specs and proceeds, he could immediately be disqualified later. Just a thought.
User avatar
having_wandered
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:54 am
Location: Zimmerman, MN

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by having_wandered »

Here's how I see it. A 6 year old should be able to take the box, dump the kit out on the table, paint it, sticker it, then take his little hammer and pound those nails in to the car. WHATEVER comes out of that should be race-able without penalty. It is practically guaranteed there will not be 4 wheels touching due to the design of the kit.

Now regarding the whole issue of "doing it on purpose to win", The district's floundering NOVA/STEM Awards program need look no further than passing on opportunities like these to make teachable moments for the Scouts about the physics behind it all.

Thanks, sorry for the rant.

Bugwubber
~Not all who wander are lost.
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by Stan Pope »

having_wandered wrote: A 6 year old should be able to take the box, dump the kit out on the table, paint it, sticker it, then take his little hammer and pound those nails in to the car. WHATEVER comes out of that should be race-able without penalty. It is practically guaranteed there will not be 4 wheels touching due to the design of the kit.
Good analysis!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
DerbyDash
Pine Head
Pine Head
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:45 am
Location: Marietta, GA

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by DerbyDash »

SirStorm wrote:Another approach would be to expand the rule. The rule would stipulate no axles may be glued in. If you can't dump the bad rule because of politics, then maybe fix it from the inside.

I do not see a way to fix a glued axle.

Has anyone tried to bend an axle with MaxVeloc axle pliers? And after bending, does the tread lay flat as required?

While not allowing axles to be glued in is an option, it would have caused us major alignment issues on our track which seemed to have cars getting flipped off the track in the stop section. (This was discussed in another post.)

I think everyone should be able to glue the axles although I agree it would be difficult to fix anything with axles that are glued.
rpcarpe
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 736
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:58 am
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

Re: 4 wheels do not touch the ground

Post by rpcarpe »

Also...

Start a grass roots e-mail, facebook, call-in campaign??
We may have to start that here for the Council rules that have 4 on Floor, but tends to go un-enforced.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
Post Reply