Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

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Stan Pope
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by Stan Pope »

loren.phillips wrote:Do these 2 schools of thought (the smoother the better vs. performance peaks at xxx grit) also apply to oil lubrication?
I can see how "performance peaks at xxx grit" applies to graphite. It is a solid that can be "worked" into micofractures. But for oil, I have assumed that "the smoother the better".
I've not read of anyone specifically applying that statment to oil lubricants.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by *5 J's* »

chromegsx wrote:Stan,

While I don't think many have "real" world experience with what your asking...(nor do I).... You will likely get lots of opinions mostly geared toward "X" grit = "X" grit, what difference does it make which direction it is accomplished? Wish I had a better microscope than a toy as I would go test this and snap pics for side by side comparison. But I can't help but think that there has to be a difference (you're getting the same point two different ways), although in my mind it should be very insignificant for the path you appear to be heading down. And results from either direction would be very interesting to see.
Based on the initial post, I think Stan is going to conduct a test of performance vs. degree of polish.

If he started at a 64 micron finish and worked down the axle would be damaging the wheel bore for the next test, however, if he started at 2 micron and worked up the axle would not damage the bore for the next test.

However, in order for this test to be valid one first needs to come to the conclusion that the polising down to 16 micron or up to 16 micron will give the same finish, i.e. the process is linear.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by sporty »

I quess I was reading way more into this then was needed. I didnt get it at first, but Im use to Stan wanting some more complex study , ect.

Which in reality is what he is headed towards.


I dont know what, you would not end up with the same surface, working forward or backward to 16 micron and not sure why you are picking 16 micron.


Id rather see you have time, to send in a car or two to mid america.


and if you do the test, I hope its not the old wind up the string test that you use to use for wheel spin testing. I hope you will be running the cars on the track and timer ??


Sporty
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

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sporty wrote:I quess I was reading way more into this then was needed. I didnt get it at first, but Im use to Stan wanting some more complex study , ect.

Which in reality is what he is headed towards.


I dont know what, you would not end up with the same surface, working forward or backward to 16 micron and not sure why you are picking 16 micron.


Id rather see you have time, to send in a car or two to mid america.


and if you do the test, I hope its not the old wind up the string test that you use to use for wheel spin testing. I hope you will be running the cars on the track and timer ??


Sporty
To give some more background ...

Variables:
Axle finish
Effective axle diameter
If time, add Bore finish

Givens:
Bore diameter (0.098")
Lubricant (fine graphite)

Method:
Turn a stock BSA axle (dia ~ 0.087") down to range 0.090" to 0.096"
Isolate!
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

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sporty wrote:I quess I was reading way more into this then was needed. I didnt get it at first, but Im use to Stan wanting some more complex study , ect.
Complex? Two credible sources have made conflicting statements about "the sweet spot" for axle polish.
sporty wrote:Id rather see you have time, to send in a car or two to mid america.
Racing is fine as a demonstration that the hypothesis might be true, but does not isolate the variable of concern. Other variables are not sufficiently controlled as to constitute proof. Further, two cases requires that linearity of effect be assumed.
sporty wrote:and if you do the test, I hope its not the old wind up the string test that you use to use for wheel spin testing.
The usual complaint is that it only measures "kinetic friction", which is a valid complaint. If, however, the method measures the effects of both kinetic friction and static friction, and measures those effects under load over a number of wheel revolutions typical of a race, then that complaint is satisfied.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by BradyS71 »

I have a wonderful microscope (50X and can go higher by making some swamps) that is conected to a digital camera. If someone needs pictures let me know I can take whatever you want. I also can try and do some polishing. I have access to sand paper up to 1200 grit and then diamond pastes (6,3,1 micron) and I believe we ave a 0.3 micron pumice.

Let me know what I can do to help.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

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BradyS71 wrote:I have a wonderful microscope (50X and can go higher by making some swamps) that is conected to a digital camera. If someone needs pictures let me know I can take whatever you want. I also can try and do some polishing. I have access to sand paper up to 1200 grit and then diamond pastes (6,3,1 micron) and I believe we ave a 0.3 micron pumice.

Let me know what I can do to help.
Interesting! How narrow/shallow of a scratch can that setup distinguish?

Keep in mind that 1 micron is 0.0000394 inches and 0.25 microns is 0.00000985 inches and 0.03 microns is 0.00000118 inches! An average unaided eye can distinguish ???
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by BradyS71 »

I have some axles at home that I can bring in and do a quick polish and post some pics. I also can use the big boy SEM (scanning electron microscope) if you don't mind waiting for a bit. I don't use it often so I would have to carve some time out to futz with it. THat one I know would show whatever detail you would like.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

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Since I suspect that most of us would be interested in seeing the depth of the scratches, do you know how to photograph a worked axle to show them? What angle? What part of the axle?

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to raise question about my "typo" from a few posts ago in this topic. :)
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by chromegsx »

Stan Pope wrote:...
BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to raise question about my "typo" from a few posts ago in this topic. :)
I noticed it but just thought it was just that...a "typo". Is it not? I guess I'll bite. :unsure:

How do you turn an axle down from .087 to .090-.096 ? :scratching: I know of ways but it's not really considered "turning them down" and certainly not in the normal capability of young racers.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by Speedster »

I noticed it but you've done other miraculous things. I had an idea how you were going to accomplish it.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by sporty »

I noticed too, but I did not figure it was worth asking or trying create a interest in it. I was hoping it was just going to go away.

Many of us, found easy ways to add to the axle to get a bigger diameter, most of us found it in waxes. You just get into a area that is beyond the average scout and may not be allowed per there rules.

Sometimes. I feel we are often re hashing old stuff, thats been on here before.

I dont like games, and I dont like guess work, or deliberate miss que's to make a atempt to create interest in this.


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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by Stan Pope »

This thread topic was launched to help me plan the necessary tests to support the development of a new tool that puts the underlying plan within capabilities of a typical Cub Scout. (Details sometime after our district races.)

Wax, etc. is fine for us old guys and for those who race year 'round, but, I think, less so for the Cubbies who race once a year.

BTW, I had ample opportunities in the past couple days to exercise the alignment process at http://www.stanpope.net/camalign.php?rail=right" target="_blank as we "leapfrogged" two new cars up to "race ready" for next Saturday. I was delighted to see how quickly it produced rear alignment results that we could not improve upon with "tweak by heat time" adjustments. It also allowed us to quickly confirm that alignment had not been lost due to other "mishaps." :) Along the way, I became convinced that the underlying plan is worth working on, as critical aspects are incorporated into the two builds above. And I think they would be totally legal under most Cub Scout rules.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by chromegsx »

Stan Pope wrote:...(Details sometime after our district races.)...
Then why point out the typo that's not a typo now vs. after districts. Ya know people are impatient. At least throw a bone to the dogs to chew on.
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Re: Does Sequence of Polishing Operations Matter?

Post by Stan Pope »

chromegsx wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:...(Details sometime after our district races.)...
Then why point out the typo that's not a typo now vs. after districts. Ya know people are impatient. At least throw a bone to the dogs to chew on.
Good point! Maybe I should go back and edit out all of the associated "breadcrumbs." (I think that there are enough "breadcrumbs" that a new "ProTool" could be on its way to market.)

Or maybe I should just say that sometimes I am okay with "spoon feeding" knowledge, especially if it is peripheral to the DT Mission, but more often I prefer "guided discovery." I really like the latter because it rewards those who incorporate their own creativity and intelligence into the communication. It produces more lasting and useful knowledge. And it helps others experience the thrill of discovery, even if it is "rediscovery."
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