Is this you???

[ah8tk]

Lately I have seen a lot of “I” and “me” in posts about Cub Scout racing, either this forum is being raided by Cub Scouts or there are a lot of mentors taking over the builds. I’m hoping this is just an error in syntax (I / me instead of we), here are some examples:

When should I…

My COM for this car…

I plan on making 3 cars this year. One for my son…

I kept those wheel/axle combos together and prepped them. I grooved the axle…

I am hoping I am mistaking these quotes for their context, but I think I am not. If I am wrong I apologize for making a mistake of your meaning.

In my spare time I help a friend of mine with Cub Scout and AWANA races, at least 2 times this season I have witnessed events that show that some individuals are still taking over the build:

The first time I was passing the inspection table, when I saw a scout open a padded case with 3 cars in it, whenever I see a kid carrying a plastic case with cars in It I must stop and look, the scout asked his mentor ”which one is mine?”. The mentor sort of embarrassedly laughed it off and pointed to the kid’s car.

The second time I saw a team cheering for their car on its first time down the track. When the cars crossed the finish line the scout thought he had won (it was not a close race). The mentor said your car is the blue one, the car that had come in second.

Had either of these scouts had even a small part of the build? I’m thinking not. Did they even have a choice of color for their car?

Back in 2007 my son had just completed his 2nd pinewood derby. His Whitewalls McQueen car had just taken 1st place in the wolf den. When racing was complete he was watching the other scouts racing their cars on the floor and into the walls. I took out his car and handed it to him, he looked back at me with a strange look. I said to him if you want to go racing with the other scouts he could. I was hoping he would not take me up on this offer, but it was his car, he had put a lot of time in on this build. He said if I wreck this car we cannot go to the district meet and race again, and why would I want to wreck my car. I was relieved.

To this day my son, entering his 4th year of Boy Scouts, comes along with me to Pinewood Derbies and sets up a display of our collection of cars and talks to both kids and adults about building cars that look like cars. Many parents/mentors come up to me and compliment me on how my son is so knowledgeable in the construction of cars and is willing to share his knowledge. Here is a picture from last year:



This is what the pinewood derby is all about, teams working together to make a car to race, it is not about winning. It is about learning while building, racing and showing good sportsmanship. If all you want to do is be the fastest maybe the pro boards are for you. You will not find many sharing how to be fast… This is why DerbyTalk is here. Thanks Randy for all you do!

Sorry for the rant, remember there is no “I” or “me” in “TEAM” (I really despise this quote, but it seems to fit here).

Andy

[jmalsa]

Andy,

Thanks for your post. I agree whole heartedly with you. I am our derby chair and you can definitely tell which cars the boys did and which ones the dads did (for design or speed). I even have an open adult division to try to entice dad to build his car and let the scout do as much of his as possible. I still have to intervine at the workshop I have at my house for people. I have to say who's car is it, let the boy do that he is capable. I build mine straight from the kit along side my sons to teach them it can be done. My sons do as much as possible (My older boy even used the band saw with my help this year). I have a Webelos 2 crossing over this month and a Wolf. I teach them the principles and techniques but make them decide if and how much they want to apply. A couple of years ago both boys separately showed me they were learning. They came up with or picked a design and both asked me can we make it thinner. I asked why do you want it thinner. Well dad don't we want more metal to wood. They are catching on. I make them polish their own axels and put on their own wheels and tune their own car, even trying to get the COM right. My Webelos 2 has a 1st in Pack from a couple of years ago and my Wolf won 2nd in Pack last year as a Tiger (He has been learning the whole time before because we have a sibling division and I was teaching him along the way, he is also very mechanically inclined). They have not won every year but the ones that they did they can take pride in and know they did the work. I keep telling them that but I do not think it eases the pain of loosing. My Webelos 2 has won a design awards the past two years with ideas he came up with. I know he is proud of that. Next year he is aiming to beat both mom and dad in design seeing he will no longer be a scout and will be in the sibling division which also competes with the adults for the design award of best non scout. Mom and dad both have taken home that award.

So I agree with Andy. LET the boys do as much work as possible. Even if they want to paint it with water colors or just marker. It is their car!!!!

[rpcarpe]

AMEN!

[ah8tk]

you can definitely tell which cars the boys did and which ones the dads did (for design or speed)

I am not comfortable with individuals who say the car needs to look like it was kid built (bad paint applied with a brush, decals/stickers crooked, etc…) to receive an award. You would be amazed what a kid can do when given the type of help to make their mind grow and see what they can accomplish next. Is this car done by a kid or an adult?



This was done by my 9-year old son (at the time) with some help from me. I don’t have pictures of him doing every part but I have a few pictures. He wanted to have a 2-tone car, so he painted a lot of blocks to get his painting improved. Sometimes I think he can do better paint than me (but I can fix screw ups better, more practice).



Don't judge a book (or a pinewood car) by its cover.

[DerbyDash]

While I fully understand the issue about "dad made" cars I can also relate to the previous comment about deciding on the look of the car alone whether a dad or scout created it. We had our PWD this weekend and took what me and my wife consider an inappropriate amount of "ribbing" from the Cubmaster about our cars and how we must have a pit crew, "people building a car to win and not just for looks", etc. We know it comes from us having a fast car again this year and winning the den / pack races.

In reading all the information on DT and getting better on the work we do on our cars, I can even see how much cleaner / better painted our car looks this year compared to last year. As we have a simple design that requires limited work to create, we did an even better job this year sanding / painting the cars so they looked fairly nice.

My son is probably the only one (or one a a very few) in our pack who can talk about the basic physics of his car and why we built it the way we did. We were trying to build a "fast" car with no certainty that it would do well or win. Obviously, we did something right again this year.

I am glad my son didn't pick up on all the comments that were made and had a great time.

[jmalsa]

Don't judge a book (or a pinewood car) by its cover.

Point taken. I also never said it had to look kid like to get an award. The best cars usually get the design award wether dad did it or the boy did it. As the derby chair and a very active leader in our Pack I also know what many of the boys are capable of by seeing them in other activities. So sometimes I know that there was no way they could accomplish that. I agree even with just a can of spray paint now a days the kids can get a great looking finish on their own, even more if dad teaches them like you have with your son.

[TedBull]

I can see how dads would want to take over their kids build to fill there competitive need. Our pack has a seperate parent/sibling class to help avoid this. My son is 6 and is in his first year as a tiger. Obvoiusly he cannot build the enire car himself so when I do the work I need to do on the car I make sure he is right there with me watching and learning the whole time while he is wearing the proper saftey gear of course. Everything he can do I make him do untill he reaches the limit of his ADHD. Then I take over so he does not get burned out on it, but he still hangs there with me while he messes with my tools, etc.

He first wanted to build a car that was fast as could be because he wanted to win. We searched for quite a while on the net together and I showed him the all the cool looking cars and all the fast pro league cars. He wanted a fast one so we cut a thin body. But then I mentioned to him I think we could put a guy on here and still be fast, so he rummedged through his toys and came up with some figures. He chose the figures, the colors, and the theme. I did my part to make his design come true and look the way he wanted witch meant I needed to do the finish hand paint. So the car should still be fast but will also look cool. I have caught him in the hobby room just staring at the car more than a few times. He is so thrilled. We are still not done and already have countless hours spent together on the build plus all the time spent at the hardware and hobby shop. I just started to build my outlaw car and he is still right there with me and fully intersted in my car. But we do everything together anyways. We even got grandpa involved.

[Speedster]

I've thought about this topic since it was 1st posted. Here's my story.

YES, it is me. I cut out the car, (must be a simple design) power sand it, drill holes for 3/8" lead weights, ( I supply the weights) get a close CM, weight the car, Bondo the holes, cut the Bondo with a razor blade when it's in its "sponge" stage, hit the remaining Bondo with sandpaper, knock off the casting marks under the head of the nail, brush some graphite in the hubs, install the wheels and hand the scout his car. The scout never touches the car to this point. I tell his mother, grandmother, etc. there must be no paint on the wheels anywhere so be sure to cover them when he paints his car. NEXT SCOUT !!! All cars should make it past the finish line and some might even win a race or two. With all the tools and equipment I have I can build a decent car in about 20 minutes. I talk as I build his car and I think that makes him feel a part of it. Hopefully we get a car finished for everyone who shows up for the workshops. We're putting on 5 workshops this year so I'm hoping every boy has a chance to have a car. Some folks have to come back because there simply is not enough time.
Everyone on DT has some skill and a lot of you have a lot of skills and a lot of tools. I hope all of you are participating in workshops. If there are no workshops happening in your area I urge you to start one. You are REALLY needed.
Cheers,
Bill

[gpraceman]

YES, it is me. I cut out the car, (must be a simple design) power sand it, drill holes for 3/8" lead weights, ( I supply the weights) get a close CM, weight the car, Bondo the holes, cut the Bondo with a razor blade when it's in its "sponge" stage, hit the remaining Bondo with sandpaper, knock off the casting marks under the head of the nail, brush some graphite in the hubs, install the wheels and hand the scout his car. The scout never touches the car to this point.

Why can't the scout be involved more directly in those steps? A scout can drill holes, while the adult holds and positions the block. They can apply wood filler/bondo and sand the car body. They can work a power sander, under adult supervision. They can be involved directly in these steps, instead of being a spectator. Depending on the age of the scout and what type of saw is being used, they might be able to help with the cutting out of the car body as well.

The way that I do workshops, is to show the racer and adult partner how to do a step. That includes what part the racer can do in that step. Then I let them at it. I try to be more of a "build adviser" than trying to do any of the work for them. I go around from station to station and provide guidance where needed. I want the racers and their adult partners to learn and have good memories about working together to build the car. After all, that is why I created Derby Talk in the first place.

[rpcarpe]

The way that I do workshops, is to show the racer and adult partner how to do a step. That includes what part the racer can do in that step. Then I let them at it. I try to be more of a "build adviser" than trying to do any of the work for them.

That's how we handle the workshops too. Remember, the overall goal of Pinewood Derby: Create a positive experience for the organization, the parent and the child while building a car.

A couple of years ago, after helping a build team with their car, the boy came up and thanked me for 'building his car'. I then carefully reminded him of all the steps HE did. He built the car. I just make tools available and advise.

If, and only if, the parent and child aren't comfortable with a tool, I'll help out. Bandsaws make a lot of people nervous so I tend to have a practiced Adult there.

Other than that, the kids do as much as possible on their cars.

[ah8tk]

YES, it is me. I cut out the car, (must be a simple design) power sand it, drill holes for 3/8" lead weights, ( I supply the weights) get a close CM, weight the car, Bondo the holes, cut the Bondo with a razor blade when it's in its "sponge" stage, hit the remaining Bondo with sandpaper, knock off the casting marks under the head of the nail, brush some graphite in the hubs, install the wheels and hand the scout his car. The scout never touches the car to this point. I tell his mother, grandmother, etc. there must be no paint on the wheels anywhere so be sure to cover them when he paints his car. NEXT SCOUT !!!

If you are building them all, why don’t you just build them all at home and bring them along and they can choose a car and paint it? Does this create the memory of them “building” their pinewood car. I’m not sure this is what Don Murphy was thinking when he came up with the pinewood derby 60 years ago.

I am not trying to degrade what you are doing, helping racers get the chance to race when their mentor doesn’t know how, or doesn’t have the tools to complete a car. I just think there could be other ways to do this and include the scout and their mentor.

This is the look of someone I helped with her car build:

[Speedster]

I agree with everything everyone has said. The ideal situation is the most fun and all around the best. If I had the luxury of time in the workshop that's exactly what I would do. People walk out of the shop because we are not helping their son at the moment. By "we", I mean Steve and me. This does nothing for the scout. In the 1980's we were able to spend more time with the scouts because there wasn't much of a need for workshops. The point I was hoping to make to everyone is there is a lot of help needed by many folks who are totally helpless. I know many on DT give that help. If I have reached people on Derby Talk who didn't even know there were workshops happening and go out and volunteer, then I've been successful in my goal. Perhaps because of you more time will be spent with the scouts while they build their precious little car.
Thank you, Boss Man, for creating this site. You'll never know all the good you do.
Cheers,
Bill Klingler

[Speedster]

ah8tk, I've seen that pretty little gal before. Believe it or not, I get the same looks when I hand the scout his car.
I don't want to build the cars at home because the scout wouldn't get to see his car go together and watch all the tools being used. However, you have given me an idea. I believe I'll put some cars together and if I think I'm losing someone I might do what you suggested. I'll trade him a car for his unopened Derby kit. We have 2 workshops left. We'll keep trying to get more adult help.
Cheers,
Bill

[rpcarpe]

Speedster,
I've been keeping the names and contact information for previous 'customers' at workshops.
Hopefully, they'll turn into the next generation of volunteers. Some already have in this 3rd year of workshops.

When your workshop season ends, it would be interesting to see the number of hours you've donated.

[chief33]

This is how I handle it with my grandson: I ask ask him each year(this will be his fourth year) is he wants his car to look great, or if he wants to try to win(we only have so much time to work on it). Each year he has said he wants to try to win, so work on axles, wheels, alignment and com more that the shape of the car. Each year we have done a slim car, which he has helped saw, and he has painted. He and I work together with the axles, and wheels(he likes the fact he can use a drill for those). Along the way I explain to him why each thing is being done, so he learns some physics along the way.
As far as it not being about winning, I kind of disagree with that. I think it matters how competitive the kid is. If he really wants to win, you should help him(help not do all the work) be as good as he can be. It shows them that in order to win you need to put the time and effort into it. And for those that are not competitive, it should be about having fun with an adult in their lives, and learning to build.