Pack Race & Rule Question

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JSG
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Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

My son did well at the pack race. He won the Bear class & won first overall. Now he goes on to a race that includes 5 local packs. Their rules are different than ours. The rule below seems to indicate that extended wheelbase cars are allowed. I talked to the Cub Master from the other pack that is spear-heading the race. I'll be the rep from our pack to help organize it. He agreed that the rule differences are enough that we should allow racers to build a new car if they wish to. We could then adopt uniform rules next year. What are your thoughts on this rule. I would like to see the "template" if they have one.

F. Wheelbase
All cars must have a wheel base no less than 4", with the two rear wheels being positioned directly across the body from one another and the two front wheels being positioned directly across the body from one another. A template will be used to gauge proper axel distance. You may add more wheels, but must have at least 4 wheels. Its is suggested you use the pre-cut axel grooves in the block

The following rule seems to contradict itself. Shaving the wheel is in effect lightening it IMO.

WHEELS:
A. Use only Official Scout Grand Prix wheels.

All lettering/numbering, both inside and outside, must remain complete and be visible.
The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible.
Outer wheel surface may be lightly sanded, shaved, or polished to remove surface imperfections, mold casting burrs, and correct off center wheel bores.
Outer wheel surface must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to lighten the wheel, minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics.
Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. Coning the hubs and truing the inside tread edge is allowed.
Tread width may not be less than 7.5 mm.
You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removed from the inside surfaces.

B. Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing and/or tapping.
Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled to alter bore diameter or to achieve better fit with the axle.

The following wheel modifications are PROHIBITED:
A. Rounding of tread surface/wheel edges
B. Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting
C. Altering of wheel profile
D. Narrowing the tread surface, other than truing inside tread edge
E. Drilling sidewalls
F. Hollowing, sanding, or otherwise removing or modifying material from inside the wheel
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by rpcarpe »

Well,
If those are your rules for this year... run with them.

Next year should be a different story. Often, the rules writer(s) attempt to prohibit one action while allowing another while they would both do the same thing. Where possible, simplify the rules so that an 8 yr old would understand them. Get an elementary teacher to help write them. Keep them simple and make it fun! Like Stan always says 'If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds'!
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
JSG
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

I know what you're saying! lol

I volunteered to help him do the inspection and a lot of the rules leave me :scratching: . I just want to be consistent. To me it would be much simpler to say "You may drill axle holes but the wheelbase may not be extended" or "Extended wheelbase is allowed". The "template" thing is confusing. Every builder would need to see it before building IMO. Maybe I'll have to search for some simple, well worded rules that we could adopt for next year.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by FatSebastian »

JSG wrote:The "template" thing is confusing.
I would guess that the template is something that is 4" long and square on both ends which can be used to check the minimum wheelbase distance and the alignment of opposite axles? Because the stock wheelbase is already more than 4", I doubt the wheelbase-template aspect of the rules will be a hindrance.

I agree with your criticisms of the "shaving" rule. My interpretation would be that you are supposed to hand-lathe the wheels to minimize runout and no more, because the other reason ("surface imperfections & mold casting burrs") are not issues with the post-2009 BSA wheels. It's not clear how an inspector would know that a wheel was trued to that level; it seems that visibility of the fluting is the real inspection criterion and all the other discussed motivation will become unenforceable.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

I'm sure more rules are sometimes the result of trying to clear things up but oftentimes it ends up muddying the waters.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by FatSebastian »

JSG wrote:I'm sure more rules are sometimes the result of trying to clear things up but oftentimes it ends up muddying the waters.
Local rules are often an amalgam of the Rules-in-the-Box and all the great ideas of everyone who has come before you. Often sentences are plucked from other rule sets found on the internet, or district or council rules, or other local packs, etc. The resulting quilt-work is far from seamless, but it nonetheless persists because the locals know what their rules are "supposed to mean" regardless of what they say.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by Stan Pope »

FatSebastian wrote:The resulting quilt-work is far from seamless, but it nonetheless persists because the locals know what their rules are "supposed to mean" regardless of what they say.
This is where one of the "RULES GURU'S should be keeping a diary of questions and answers that variouis builders have about the rules. The diary should be published periodically.
Stan
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Aron
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by Aron »

I would think that it would be a great plan to adapt a set of rules that are the same and shared for both the pack race and the 5 pack race. Makes it much eaiser for all the boys involved. I would say after this year a meeting with all 5 pack leaders would be in order.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by pgosselin »

Yep those rules need some help. Agree with FS about the outdated rule about shaving post 2009 wheel. When faced with a rule like that, I polish the hubs, but don't do too much else to the wheels because you never know how the inspector is going to react. The axles directly apart from each other rule is odd, too. I don't see the benefit of doing it any other way. So why bring it up? Looks like they are pretty strict about not canting the wheels. So be careful there. If you have enough time, I would build a new car. Standard wheelbase cars are much harder to align than extended wheelbase ones, IMHO.

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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by Stan Pope »

pgosselin wrote:Looks like they are pretty strict about not canting the wheels.
Where does it say anything about axle camber? I've been through that posting several times and only find that the tread must be parallel to the bore! But, neither, apparently, needs to be parallel to the track! :)

But then, I've misplaced my mag. glass, and having trouble making out some detail.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

Stan Pope wrote:
pgosselin wrote:Looks like they are pretty strict about not canting the wheels.
Where does it say anything about axle camber? I've been through that posting several times and only find that the tread must be parallel to the bore! But, neither, apparently, needs to be parallel to the track! :)

But then, I've misplaced my mag. glass, and having trouble making out some detail.

That's how I read it too. As long as the inspectors understand what the rule means there shouldn't be a problem with canted wheels/axles.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by ah8tk »

pgosselin wrote:The axles directly apart from each other rule is odd, too. I don't see the benefit of doing it any other way. So why bring it up?
This is for the teams that add the wheel somewhere else on the car and use a peg for the non-DFW. This rule stops that.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

To me this is the strangest rule:

You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removed from the inside surfaces.

I can see the last part but why not just state "no material may be removed the inside surfaces". I've never seen anyone balance a wheel by adding a weight to the inside. Lathing the outside for balance would make more sense and be easier IMO.
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by Stan Pope »

JSG wrote:To me this is the strangest rule:

You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removed from the inside surfaces.

I can see the last part but why not just state "no material may be removed the inside surfaces". I've never seen anyone balance a wheel by adding a weight to the inside. Lathing the outside for balance would make more sense and be easier IMO.
First, once the "outside" has been lathed to symmetry, further improvement for balance by lathing the outside is not possible. In fact, the interior assymetry that is producing the imbalance becomes increasingly significant because of its increased percentage of the total mass.

What is needed then is to "even out" the interior assymetry. For instance, locate the "heavy side" and scrape away a bit of it "until the wheel balances". But this is what I would do if I were trying to "lighten the wheel": just be a "balancing perfectionist!"

But why include an allowance to add material inside? Adding material to a wheel, e.g. to increase the tread diameter, may be illegal, so it may be necessary to provide a specific permission. At least, if one is balancing by adding weight, one would be motivated to add "just enough to do the job!"
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Re: Pack Race & Rule Question

Post by JSG »

True! I hadn't thought of that.
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