Bad experience at invitationals

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first-timer
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Bad experience at invitationals

Post by first-timer »

I went to my first Invitational this past Saturday and it was not a pleasant experience. I am looking for input on what is normal or expected and how you guys with experience would have handled the situations.

When my son first heard news about the Pinewood derby he was very excited and wanted to build the fastest car. I am also competitive so I started doing research and found this forum. I spent many hours searching and reading post while learning all the tricks to making a fast car. I then contacted the local troop official and the guy in charge of the Invitational’s formerly known as Districts. I got a copy of the rules and they were the same for both derby’s. The rules were simple and one of the rules stated the axle slots had to be used and wheel bases could not be changed. This rule was in bold.

We built what I hoped to be a super fast car and at his pack race everything went great and he never lost a heat. Now comes the invitationals. He is very excited and we get to car check in and all goes well so we decide to look at the cars. One of them has all the tricks you can tell by looking at it and then I notice the wheelbase has been extended. This is against the rules and I felt was unfair. I mentioned it to the guy checking in cars and he says we just want the boys to race. I then checked with the guy in charge of the event and he talked to the guy checking in the cars and came back with the same answer. He said that it was about the kids and they were going to let him race. After the race started I notice this kid’s dad has on a Scout shirt and is a den leader. I know it is about the kids and we want them to have fun but there are rules for a reason. His cheater car lost the race off and he did not win anything but still what does this teach the kids.

Well my son did very well he won every heat and at the end another car he had never raced against also won every heat so there was a race of for first place. 2 cars and four lanes so 4 races once in each lane. There were no timers just digital finishing order. The first race he loses, the second he wins, the third a tie, so it all comes down to the 4th race and he wins. The boys shake hands and congratulate each other. Now he gets to race against the other three age groups for grand champion. When all age groups get ready they announce the winners and when it comes down to his group they make a mistake and I know mistakes happen abut they announce him as second place and the other kid as first. So now I feel compelled to complain again. I go right to the guy in charge and he checks with the track official for that track who is the same guy that was checking in the cars. He looks at his results and says yup that is right my son came in second. I explain that a mistake had happened and he should ask the other boy. I tell him if the other boy says he won that I will drop it but he says that the boy was not in charge he is and the results stand. My son is crushed he has been telling everyone that he won. Lots of people got wind and finally they decide to have another race off and my son wins all 4 heats this time.

During the grand champion race which he also won all heats the other kids father who is also another den leader comes up to my wife and says that our sons car just weighed in at 5.01 oz but they decided not to contest it. [censored], I felt that I did everything wright but I also felt that I was that dad that complains until his son wins.

Sorry about the long story but I have a 6 year old that will be going through the system and need to know what to expect or what I should do. If I was in the wrong I am OK with criticism. Let me know.
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sporty
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by sporty »

Well a few things.

First, First time to a big race, It's hard, You don't know what they are allowing and how serious they take the race. So It's never easy the first time. Some are more layed back or relaxed and are more a follower. You are more of a leader in ways. It's not a bad thing.

But it does mean, when you feel something is not right or wrong, You will ask questions and so forth. This is more or less normal. As long as you stay calm and is addressed professionally, then Nothing wrong with asking questions and wanting clarifications.

The race being a bit layed back and not strict on rules, sadly can be more common then not. It's also how some people who run the races to focus and deal with confrontations or questions. I have seen that type of reply before.

Sadly, I will asume, the person who had the longer wheel base car, perhaps raised the same issues and was allowed to run, because they didnt want to disappoint the child.

Yes, too. when you feel your son won, and ends up with a 2nd place. the judges have the say so. And i likely would not have said can we get the other child. That there is kind of a no no. He wants to win too and depending on how he was raised, his age and so forth. Could be very upsetting for a child.

So I would not have mentioned that or gone that route to mention.

The old judge by the eye, s not as good as a timer system. But many packs and councils cant afford the money or refer to run the race that way.

I have seen judges at the end of a track that had timers, because they didnt trust the timer, which was weird, But there are a wide range of different views in this world and often, It can be different then what may be better to do.


I think you realized, you were in it to win it and are very competitive. So your emotions might have been a little high. In the end look at it, As your son did very well his first time out and can only do better in the future.

I think the best way is to contact the district and offer to help on race day and offer to be on there pinewood derby committee. If they allow you to, This is the place to share, help and work together in making a better race for the kids.

If they are not willing to except you're help or allow you to get on the pinewood derby committee. Then sadly. You will have to realize, there outlook and view on the races are a bit different then yours and you may have to learn to bite the tongue a bit.

Hope this helps some.

Sporty
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by FatSebastian »

sporty wrote:The old judge by the eye, is not as good as a timer system. But many packs and councils cant afford the money or refer to run the race that way...
first-timer said "There were no timers just digital finishing order." I took this to mean that "There were no times...", i.e., an electronic timing system was indeed used but it only indicated finish order.

:thinking: Implicitly, there may be an underlying theme that, recurring questionable activities resulted in a consultation of "the man in charge" with one other official running things from the trenches (check-in, race results) and the result of that consultation tended to always go against first-timer's son?
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by first-timer »

Thanks guys for the input. I did volunteer for the pack race and offered for the invitationals. I probably should not have asked to bring the other child in but I know my son would have spoke up right away and said no I was second not first and I guess I just expect that from others.

It really did come down to one guy that was set in his ways and a leader that didn't want any confrontation. I was calm and professional the entire time but I was also upset. I am kind of anal and expected better one of my flaws.

They did end up making it right and my son was the grand champion so I must thank this forum for all the great information. I think that is why it bothers me, I almost feel like others might think that I just complain so that my child can win and that is not me.
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sporty
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by sporty »

I gave up along time, worrying about what people think of me. You are a father and a dad and a parent. When are we not trying to do right, teach right or protect our kids. It's our nature. Sometimes moms are way worse.

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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by sporty »

forgot to ask, can we see a picture of the car ?
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by FatSebastian »

:welcome: and congratulations on :1st: . In addition to Sporty's excellent observations and advice, I'll add my own FWIW...
first-timer wrote:I mentioned it to the guy checking in cars and he says we just want the boys to race. I then checked with the guy in charge of the event and he talked to the guy checking in the cars and came back with the same answer.
Granted, managing a race is not easy, although this seems a bit like the tail wagging the dog. Some people manage activities like firefighters; they do and/or say whatever they think is needed to make the perceived issue go away before it flares any bigger. If an issue comes down to the opinion of an individual parent or a busy volunteer, leadership will tend to pacify the volunteer before the parent. And if an "angry mob" convinces the leader that the volunteer erred, he'll pacify the mob.
first-timer wrote:I tell him if the other boy says he won that I will drop it but he says that the boy was not in charge he is and the results stand. [...] Lots of people got wind and finally they decide to have another race off ...
I would not have expected another race once the race leadership affirmed that the results "stand". In fairness, the re-running of the races was an admission that the race managers erred and thus you were fortunate that circumstances worked to your son's advantage. As an individual parent, one should probably expect to have very limited to no sway in race disputes involving one's own son.
first-timer wrote:...the other kids father who is also another den leader comes up to my wife and says that our sons car just weighed in at 5.01 oz but they decided not to contest it.
This is slightly bizarre, and might just be chalked up to poor sportsmanship on the part of a parent. An extra 0.01 ounces (~1/4 gram) should have negligible effect in a Cub-Scout race and would have also been easy for your race team to address if brought to your attention. (If a car were weighed 10 times in a row on the same digital scale, the final reading might very well differ from the initial reading by 0.01 ounces from environmental variations due to normal use, temperature, etc.)
first-timer wrote:I did volunteer for the pack race and offered for the invitationals.
Volunteer again. Such an offer may be given due consideration this next time, given the experiences of this race. It is a testament that, as a novice race team, you won your district race against cars that were obviously not following the rules.
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by first-timer »

Here is his car, its the green MSU car. It may not of been the prettiest but it was the fastest. I can also say that he did everything except the dangerous cuts on the band saw and installing the axles.
Image

This was one of the races at his pack competition.
Image

This is him with his Grand Champion trophy. He is on the right. He was also a little sick and that is why he doesn't look to happy.
Image

Here is a video, it is from the Grand Champion race at the invitationals.

http://vimeo.com/62122978
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sporty
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by sporty »

Thanks 4 sharing the pictures. my fav color is green.

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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by chromegsx »

A first suggestion for you to give as a volunteer (if accepted) would be to change the title of the "rules" page to "GUIDELINES" or "SUGGESTIONS". Or better yet throw out the ones they are not going to enforce.

Not sure I would have kept pushing after the second "confirmation" of the winner (even though wrong). Not worth the stress and a valuable opportunity to teach your children how the world really works vs. what is being pushed about every child getting treated like a winner. Nowadays it seems someone is always filming stuff like this and could have been easily confirmed if available from the crowd. Of course now you have a "reputation" (we all do), it may make things more difficult depending on the situation and who you know or keep company with. Politics are ugly, but they're more real than everybody being a winner.
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Re: Bad experience at invitationals

Post by Pacfanweb »

chromegsx wrote:A first suggestion for you to give as a volunteer (if accepted) would be to change the title of the "rules" page to "GUIDELINES" or "SUGGESTIONS". Or better yet throw out the ones they are not going to enforce.

Not sure I would have kept pushing after the second "confirmation" of the winner (even though wrong). Not worth the stress and a valuable opportunity to teach your children how the world really works vs. what is being pushed about every child getting treated like a winner. Nowadays it seems someone is always filming stuff like this and could have been easily confirmed if available from the crowd. Of course now you have a "reputation" (we all do), it may make things more difficult depending on the situation and who you know or keep company with. Politics are ugly, but they're more real than everybody being a winner.

I would have. It's not just about winning, it's a great way to teach your son how to stand up for himself. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
You don't have to get mad and cause a big argument, but it easily can be discussed firmly and assertively until the wrong is corrected. But if I knew my son had won like OP's did, I'd have definitely pushed until the correct outcome was in place.
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