Fenders-Are they legal?

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resullivan
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by resullivan »

I said it previously and I will say it again. By your interpretation of the 3/8" rule only hover cars would be allowed because by the letter of the rule wheels touch and far exceed the 3/8" rule.
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by Speedster »

re, if this is directed toward me, I didn't interpret the rule. I simply read it and was trying to comply and to get an answer from The Boss. The bottom clearance rule is as easy to measure and understand as the Length, Width, Height and Weight rule. I don't read Length, Width, Height and Weight rules and question them. They are simply rules the Commodore Perry District printed and everyone must follow.
Our Rule #6 states specifically what you must do with the wheels and axles. There are even a few pictures to help the scouts understand.
Our Rule #11 would disqualify hover cars.
I am not the enemy. I was simply trying to get an answer from those in charge so there would not be an unfortunate incident at Check-in at the District races. I still do not have an answer. There were no fender cars at the district races. I was told we would be having a meeting. I'll get it settled then.
resullivan
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by resullivan »

No, not directed at anyone. I am just illustrating why I don't think that rule outlaws fenders.
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by Darin McGrew »

ODDRacing wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:So are decorations and ballast also "an add on" that shouldn't be considered part of the "body" of the car? Should decorations and ballast also be ignored when determining whether a car meets any rules restricting its dimensions?
I think you're missing the point. The 3/8" rule was made so the belly of the car doesnt drag on the center rail. Plain and simple. No parts of the fenders touch the track. I would love to have someone try to disqualify a car for having fenders b/c of the 3/8" rule. Official BSA PWD Rules "The car must have 3/8” clearance underneath the body so it does not rub on the track." Fenders are fenders. The body of the car is the body. If you add a sticker to the car, is the sticker the body?
I'm on your side as far as fenders disqualifying a car. Our rules specify that the car must fit the track, and as long as a car with fenders fits the track, it races. But the argument should be based on the car fitting the track, or on the car not scraping the center guide rail. The argument should not be based on the fenders not being part of the "body" of the car.

IMHO, the body of the car (for the purposes of these rules) includes all the decorations, ballast, fenders, paint, figures, wings, fins, stickers, glitter, googly eyes, etc. attached to the wood from the original block, and not just the wood from the original block. If you argue that the fenders aren't part of the "body" of the car, then you could just as validly argue that any other add-on isn't part of the "body" of the car.

Let's say the rules limit the length of a car to 7 inches. That's a common enough rule, from what I can see. If someone came in with a car that had a 3-inch extension on the nose, would you argue that the 10-inch car should be allowed, on the grounds that the "body" of the car is only 7 inches, and the nose extension isn't part of the "body" of the car.
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by TXDerbyDad »

resullivan wrote:I said it previously and I will say it again. By your interpretation of the 3/8" rule only hover cars would be allowed because by the letter of the rule wheels touch and far exceed the 3/8" rule.
:bigups:
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by ODDRacing »

Darin McGrew wrote:
ODDRacing wrote:I think you're missing the point. The 3/8" rule was made so the belly of the car doesnt drag on the center rail. Plain and simple. No parts of the fenders touch the track. I would love to have someone try to disqualify a car for having fenders b/c of the 3/8" rule. Official BSA PWD Rules "The car must have 3/8” clearance underneath the body so it does not rub on the track." Fenders are fenders. The body of the car is the body. If you add a sticker to the car, is the sticker the body?
I'm on your side as far as fenders disqualifying a car. Our rules specify that the car must fit the track, and as long as a car with fenders fits the track, it races. But the argument should be based on the car fitting the track, or on the car not scraping the center guide rail. The argument should not be based on the fenders not being part of the "body" of the car.

IMHO, the body of the car (for the purposes of these rules) includes all the decorations, ballast, fenders, paint, figures, wings, fins, stickers, glitter, googly eyes, etc. attached to the wood from the original block, and not just the wood from the original block. If you argue that the fenders aren't part of the "body" of the car, then you could just as validly argue that any other add-on isn't part of the "body" of the car.

Let's say the rules limit the length of a car to 7 inches. That's a common enough rule, from what I can see. If someone came in with a car that had a 3-inch extension on the nose, would you argue that the 10-inch car should be allowed, on the grounds that the "body" of the car is only 7 inches, and the nose extension isn't part of the "body" of the car.
I disagree. This is where the word verbage comes into play. When you talk about the body of the car for the 3/8" clearance rule they're only referring to the block of wood, not all the attachments. That's the "body" of the car. The "car" itself is all the attachments, wheels, axles, etc. 2 different words explaining 2 different things. If you say the fenders are the "body" of the car, that means the wheels and axles are the body as well, which we know isn't the case because the wheels aren't on a 3/8" clearance unless it's hovering as stated earlier.

So for your example where the length of the car shall not exceed 7", but you add a 3" extension (add-on), the rule still applies because they used the verbage "car" not "body". You can't twist the rules the otherway saying that the body is only 7" with a 3" add-on because they aren't measuring the body, they're measuring the car.
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by FatSebastian »

ODDRacing wrote:If you say the fenders are the "body" of the car, that means the wheels and axles are the body as well
:thinking: Interesting. I might have supposed that "car body" carried the same meaning as it does for real automobiles. Thus, wheels would not be considered the "body", but fenders would. (A body shop repairs fenders, whereas a tire shop deals with wheels.) Considered any of the realistic-looking cars by, say, ah8tk; where does the "body" stop and the "fender" start? What about a spoiler or antenna if there is a height restriction?

Image

IMO it seems reasonable to allow fenders that drop below the 3/8" limit if they do not interfere with the track (regardless of whether it is part of the "body" or not), but I can also understand Speedster's caution. Even if an inspector understands the motive behind a rule, one must be prepared for push-back from parents who do not and wish to label some cars as having "cheated".
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by Darin McGrew »

ODDRacing wrote:When you talk about the body of the car for the 3/8" clearance rule they're only referring to the block of wood, not all the attachments.
So if I attach ballast (or even decorations) that would extend into the 3/8" clearance space, then that's okay because those aren't the block of wood, those are just attachments?
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by ODDRacing »

By reading the rules by the verbiage, IMO, if you add attachments to the body of the car that would be legal. Whether or not your goes anywhere is another story.
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by whodathunkit »

FatSebastian wrote:
ODDRacing wrote:If you say the fenders are the "body" of the car, that means the wheels and axles are the body as well
:thinking: Interesting. I might have supposed that "car body" carried the same meaning as it does for real automobiles. Thus, wheels would not be considered the "body", but fenders would. (A body shop repairs fenders, whereas a tire shop deals with wheels.) Considered any of the realistic-looking cars by, say, ah8tk; where does the "body" stop and the "fender" start? What about a spoiler or antenna if there is a height restriction?

Image

IMO it seems reasonable to allow fenders that drop below the 3/8" limit if they do not interfere with the track (regardless of whether it is part of the "body" or not), but I can also understand Speedster's caution. Even if an inspector understands the motive behind a rule, one must be prepared for push-back from parents who do not and wish to label some cars as having "cheated".
FS,
The full alowable width 2 3/4 inches. :scratching:
If this were the case and the wheels where pushed up tight to the block..
you would have 2 1/2 inches.

Block 1 3/4 inches ..wheels 3/8 inch x2 = 2 1/2 inches.
What about the wheel gap... 1/16 + 1/16.
Add it all up and it's close to 2 5/8 inches wide.

From the photo would you say there is 1/16 to.. 1/32 thirty secound of over hang
on each side over the fenders.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Sat May 10, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by FatSebastian »

whodathunkit wrote:Should the rules read 3 inches in width?
:idk: Width specifications presumably exist so that cars don't foul the adjacent lane, and could be different for different tracks. As Darin said, such arguments should be based on the car fitting the track. My comment sought to recognize that is sometimes hard to demarcate where "fender" or "accessory" ends and the "body" begins, regardless of the dimensional specifications.
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Re: Fenders-Are they legal?

Post by whodathunkit »

EDIT.. Sorry FS,

My measurement on the full width of the wheel with the inter hub was a little off.
I was thinking it was 1/2"... :doh:... 3/8" is more like it.

Had the measurement been 1/2" for the full width of the wheel with hub:
It would have looked a little more like this:
Block 1 3/4" wheels 1/2" (x2) = 2 3/4" & 1/16" for wheel gap (x2) = 2 7/8"

So that's why I said should the rules read 3" inches in width.

Whoda.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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