Fenders-Are they legal?

[Speedster]

If rules state there must be 3/8" clearance between bottom of car and the track, does this not make fenders illegal? Also, it has been pointed out screwing the zinc plate, or tungsten plates, to the bottom of the car actually gives an advantage over those following the rules because the weight is lower on the car. Tungsten cubes could be fitted in the fenders below the bottom of the car.
If I glued a craft stick to the sides of my car between the car and the track, would that be legal?

[psycaz]

The 3/8" rule is usually to ensure the car doesn't bottom out during the transition to the flat section of the track on the center rail. We never enforce it in regards to fenders.

As to weight location, I've never tried hanging weights that low. I always try to keep it at the middle of the axle line or just a touch below.

[Speedster]

If you have the 3/8" clearance rule and someone is skilled enough to make the High-Tech fenders increase speed, are you not being unfair to the others who are following the rules? I suspect the League racers install fenders for additional speed. Our rule on "Details" clearly states anything attached to the car cannot violate the dimension specifications. Fenders that extend below the bottom of the car are clearly in violation and their intent is to increase speed. If, as an inspector, I do not enforce the 3/8" rule and the car takes 1st place, all the other legal racers have a legitimate protest. I have already decided nothing will extend below the bottom of the car. Others, of course, can make their own decisions.

[gpraceman]

If you have the 3/8" clearance rule and someone is skilled enough to make the High-Tech fenders increase speed, are you not being unfair to the others who are following the rules?

I don't really see how that is being unfair to other racers and is not following the rules. The 3/8" clearance rule is intended to make sure that cars will not rub their bellies on the guide strip. That has nothing to do with the track's running surface. If you disallow fenders from going closer to the track, you are deviating from the intent of that rule, which to me, is being unfair to the racers. It takes away something that should be legitimately allowed, if someone wants to try it.

Also, making fenders is not high tech in my opinion. We've made them before with some balsa and the same tools that we use to cut and shape the car body.

[Speedster]

I do agree that was the original intent of the rule. However, the rule is very clear. I have written to the District Executive and whatever he says I will follow.

[Darin McGrew]

Our rule is "All cars must fit our track", so fenders that extend below the belly of the car are no problem in our derby as long as the car still fits our track.

But given the rule "3/8" clearance between bottom of car and the track", it depends on whether the bottom of the car is the part over the center guide rail, or whether the bottom of the car is the lowest part of the fender.

[resullivan]

Well, your wheels are attached to the car, so by your iterpretation of the rule those would be illegal as well. I believe our rules state that if you do not meet the 3/8 then the car will be rolled at the bottom of the track. If rolls it races.

[whodathunkit]

Car Specifications.
Width 2 3/4" Width between wheels 1 3/4".. length 7"
(Bottom clearance between car & track 3/8" )

Okay, If you set a stock BSA kit/block on the track with the wheels installed & tuching flat to the wheel running surface of the track.
You should have at least (9/16'') of clearance from the track wheel surface to the bottom side of the kit block.
Most aluminum track guide rail strips stick up 3/16" from the track wheel running surface..
as most wooden track guide rail strips will very in hight.

Under the over all width rule of 2 3/4":
You could run with fenders that hang down no lower then 3/16" from the bottom of the kit block ..
and still make the very tight 3/8" Bottom clearance between car and track rule..
plus the 1 3/4 " width between wheels rule..
(if it's from the track wheel running surface only.. that we take the 3/8" reading from.)
And not from the top of the guide strip of the track.

So If the fenders or weights hang down no lower the 3/16" from the bottom of the block I'd say legal.
As the whole car would clear the 3/8" rule.
(But not around the wheels that have to lift the block up for clearance!)

If the fenders or weights on the car are lower then 3/16" off the bottom of the block..
I'd would have to say that it is illegal..under the bottom clearance between car and track 3/8" rule.
Because the wheels would not be tuching if the weights were sticking down to far.
Or if checking the fenders with the wheels tuching the track:
That you could not slide anything that was 3/8" thick under the bottom of the fenders to the rail..
from the lower part of the track wheel running surface as well.

Under the bottom clearance between car and track we are to clear the track rail by 3/8".
And that is the clearance you would have if nothing was sticking down more then 3/16"
off the bottom of the kit block.

The issue is the track wheel running surface by 3/8" also.

If you look at the BSA, Revell or Pinecar brand fenders sold:
most all I have seen will stay flush with the bottom of the kit block.

Now if you look at the fenders the league racing cars are running with:
There are 5 different types sold that I know of..
that will run closer to the track wheel running surface.

So to be fair to all with my response:
The Original Kit Style was based on an open wheel car design:
So the wheels were simply to be placed outboard from the block with the axle support blocks.

Todays kits blocks are 1 3/4" wide so between the wheels you should be good to go..
(Given the block is dead on 1 3/4" in width as some blocks do have defects!)
With wheels installed and gaped right you should have a 2 3/4" wide.. open wheel car.
So under the width between wheels 1 3/4" and lenght 7" and width of 2 3/4" specifications given..
And in the Offical Grand Prix Pinewood Derby KIT..NO 17006 Building Instructions sheet.
Saying Details:
Such as steering wheel & driver as long as these details do not exceed the max lenght,
width & weight specifications.
Or Details:
Such as fins and scoops.. steering wheel ..windshild.. driver.. racing numbers, etc should be added now.. (and nothing at all about Fenders.. except for ect seen)
That the cars can even run with them at all.

Interpretations of the rules (will & do very) from pack to pack and from league to league.

Speedster, Thanks for starting this topic about fenders.

[birddog]

We use the "car inspection boxes" that can be purchased from several vendors (actually, I think Randy makes them). Those boxes work great and make it easy on the inspectors to check dimension rules and speed up check in.

Anyway, while we have the 3/8" rule, we inspect that rule with the inspection box. The box passes any car with fenders, so we are good to go.

I think prohibiting fenders due to this rule would be a bad interpretation of the rule, but you should know how your district intends to enforce it before you build your car!

birddog

[ODDRacing]

The interpretation of the rule is ridiculous. Fenders are not the "body" of the car. They are an add on to make the wheels more aerodynamic. the 3/8" is so the "body" of the car doesnt rub the center guide rail. To say that a fender violates this rule is sad because people dont know how to interpret the intent of the rules. Just another reason that people that make the rules shouldnt try to make the rules "fair" for everyone because that's impossible. Instead make the rules so they kids can enjoy the build and try and make as fast of a car as possible.

[knotthed]

Speedster,

Very astute observation of your rules! I would agree with you, it's black and white and in english.

Intent is a communication variable, something very different and left to interpretation. Intent should not be part of derby rules, unless examples are given to communicate the intent and provide clarification.

A good many rule sets could benefit from someone sitting down with a good technical writer in my opinion.

[ODDRacing]

Or don't make technical opened ended rules for that leave room for interpretation.

[Speedster]

I never got an answer on the fenders. I worked the repair table the entire day and there were no cars with fenders. Allow me to share the humorous side of all this. The two gentlemen who have been inspecting the cars for several years were replaced with one gentleman who has been around scouts for a long, long time. A great guy and some interesting stories of his Pinewood Derby days as a child.
He had a test piece - length, width, height, and a scale for Maximum weight. All the problems of the day (6) were simply over weight and easily solved. There were a few illegal cars for Best Design that he let go through. No Problem. There was a car for race had one wheel that was a pre 1985 wheel. It had a ring around the center of the wheel. The other 3 wheels were legal wheels. I pointed it out to him and he said he wasn't going to do anything about it. Again, No Problem. It wasn't any advantage. Now comes the humor. A friend of mine brought his "OUTLAW" car to the race. It is a 5 ounce car, extended wheelbase (illegal in our rules) with razor wheels. As a joke we sent a young scout through the inspection line with this car. The thing that stopped him was the extended wheelbase. No mention of the razor wheels. We all had a good laugh. He's a great guy and I hope he's the inspector next year. I'm going to try to join him in being an inspector for 2015. Lightened wheels and axles would have moved right by him and I'd like to keep it as fair as I can for all the scouts. We are graphite only and I have no idea how many oil cars there might have been. I hope none. All in all, it was a super great day.
I hope all your District races go as smoothly as ours did.
Cheers,
Speedster

[Darin McGrew]

The interpretation of the rule is ridiculous. Fenders are not the "body" of the car. They are an add on to make the wheels more aerodynamic.

So are decorations and ballast also "an add on" that shouldn't be considered part of the "body" of the car? Should decorations and ballast also be ignored when determining whether a car meets any rules restricting its dimensions?

[ODDRacing]

The interpretation of the rule is ridiculous. Fenders are not the "body" of the car. They are an add on to make the wheels more aerodynamic.

So are decorations and ballast also "an add on" that shouldn't be considered part of the "body" of the car? Should decorations and ballast also be ignored when determining whether a car meets any rules restricting its dimensions?

I think you're missing the point. The 3/8" rule was made so the belly of the car doesnt drag on the center rail. Plain and simple. No parts of the fenders touch the track. I would love to have someone try to disqualify a car for having fenders b/c of the 3/8" rule. Official BSA PWD Rules "The car must have 3/8” clearance underneath the body so it does not rub on the track." Fenders are fenders. The body of the car is the body. If you add a sticker to the car, is the sticker the body?