"Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

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davidwilkie
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"Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by davidwilkie » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:54 pm

My boys' pack rules this year state:

"Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race, so they will not foul the track."

Note that they must turn their cars in by 8:pm the night before and their races are at about noon the next day, so 16 hours later.

Any counsel as to whether graphite is the only / best solution for this rule? It not, what is?

Of note, further down, for the District rules (so presumably not in effect for the Pack races) it states "...with only graphite powder or the new B.S.A. white lube T102/polytern fluoroethylene..." so we're also curious if this "white lube" is a better alternative to graphite for the "dry at time of race" stated above?

Thanks for any tips!



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by derbyfever » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:18 pm

My understanding is that Graphite is a dry lubricant. We have the same rules. I have heard of" dry like" oils, but I would NOT consider that dry. Dry silicone or oils, may pick up graphite from track and make a gooey mess in the wheel hub anyway. imho.. unless your rules state no lubricating of any kind, I would take "dry" as using graphite. Do they Graphite lube all the boys cars for them?? something to ask the race officials.



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Scrollsawer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:28 pm

Their wording could be more specific, and less ambiguous, if you ask me. When in doubt, ask for clarification from the race officials, and ensure they publish the given clarification to the rest of the racers.

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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by ngyoung » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:36 pm

If applied properly oil would be justified IMHO. 1-2 drops on each axle and you won't have anything coming out to foul the track. I agree though that the wording is very vague. Oil prep is slightly different so if it something you want to try there may be a slight learning curve. Most of it involves keeping your axles and wheel bores free of debris and fingerprints before putting them together and installing on the car.



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:27 pm

If I were an inspection judge and saw no sign of liquid on or around the wheel, I would conclude that the lubricant was dry. With such a long separation between inspection and racing, a second, brief inspection should be conducted of the cars in the pit. If in the interim between inspection and start of racing some liquid leaked out, I'd call the owner in to "clean it up!"

I don't ordinarily accept "reinspection" but in this case, the rules seem to require it. :(


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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by davidwilkie » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:01 pm

I should have provided more info / context

Graphite is definitely allowed...in fact they provide a "prep table" and the only touching of the cars allowed after check-in the night before is that morning just before your heats you can add more graphite to your car (which I guess is another question as to whether adding more graphite just before your heats is a good idea or not)

the nature of my question was if anyone would advise using a lubricant other than graphite? we've never raced with anything other than graphite, but if "dry at time of race" suggests there is a better strategy -- some kind of oil? or the white lube they list? -- it would be of interest to consider



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:28 pm

davidwilkie wrote:I should have provided more info / context

Graphite is definitely allowed...in fact they provide a "prep table" and the only touching of the cars allowed after check-in the night before is that morning just before your heats you can add more graphite to your car (which I guess is another question as to whether adding more graphite just before your heats is a good idea or not)

the nature of my question was if anyone would advise using a lubricant other than graphite? we've never raced with anything other than graphite, but if "dry at time of race" suggests there is a better strategy -- some kind of oil? or the white lube they list? -- it would be of interest to consider
No "white lube"!!! Too much "stiction".

My intent in writing those words (many years ago) was to allow such pre-treatments as spray-on Lemon Pledge, et.al., which goes onto the axle WET but is ALLOWED TO DRY before assembling the car.


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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by whodathunkit » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:37 pm

Krytox 100- is not a dry lube..
And nyoil is hardly being sold by Pwd venders any more.
And Stan, has a good paper test for checking for oil lubes.. ;)
Last edited by whodathunkit on Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by davidwilkie » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:43 am

my boys definitely do not want to cheat...just curious if there's some lube that "dry at race time to not foul track" means other ideas. We were even wondering if grease (yes, grease) would outperform graphite and be essentially "dry" and "not get on track"...maybe there is something else that is superior to graphite that meets that criteria, but if not, they will just do graphite like always



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Speedster » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:52 am

What brand graphite are you going to use?



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by davidwilkie » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:14 pm

We have all of these graphites...

Image



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Vitamin K » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:32 pm

I have had it suggested to me by more than one person that you should use the Max-V stuff to burnish your wheel bores, and then the Hobb-E-Lube to actually lubricate your wheels and axles.
davidwilkie wrote:We have all of these graphites...

Image



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by Speedster » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:09 pm

The Hob-E-Lube graphite has Molybdenum added and is very popular. I don't understand why Hodges Hobby House graphite, also with Molybdenum, does not seem popular anymore. It is a little larger flake compared to Hob-E-Lube, which I thought was a benefit according to Dr. Jobe. Are DT racers winning with a graphite other than Hob-E-Lube? Why did you choose your particular graphite?



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by sporty » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:41 pm

Hodges at winderby. Is still a good option.

I like to use 3.

I burnish with max_v.

It's finer and does little damage to the bore. I burnish borw. By filling the bore up with max_v.
then use walgreens q_tip with ends cut off.
I do refill bore. 5 to 6 times.
I ream in and out. Electric drill. Low tomedium'm speed with cordless electric drill. 10 to 12 seconds.

Then repeat. As mentioned. 5 to 6 times.

Then use extra fluffy pipe cleaner. Bj long. Extrfluffy extra absorbent. I dampen pipe cleaner before using. And try to remove and fuzz / lint. That may come off.
then I fill wheel bore 1/2 full with hodges. Use cordless drill. With pipe cleaner. 3 to 4 inches long.

I do this 3 to 7 times. Mean repeat that process. Sometimes using another pipe cleaner if it compressed to much.

6 to 10 seconds. Each time. Same low to medium speed.


I do all this to fill micro imperfections and to try and build up layers on top of the base layer build up.
have to be careful not to over burnish and end up not building up the micron layers. Or burnishing thru the layer you just built up.

The 3rd. Final. Once the wheel is on. I use hobbilube. For the final add in.

I do all this. Because after alot of trial and error and testing. It gave me the fastest times.

The caution. Is. If you have trouble. Building the layer. Burnish to fast drill speed or to long on time burnishing to ling. Before adding more graphite in this process. It's not going to work very well in the end.
you will not build up the layers and will burn thru the base layer.
if you don't do it right. Then there will not be a speed loss. But no speed gain.
meaning. It would be no different. Then use just did a two different graphite process.

Which the same issue is there. If you over due it. As I just mentioned.

Sporty



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Re: "Lubricants must be dry at the time of the race"

Post by knotthed » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:35 pm

I am not aware of a successful test for oil in a race situation. I have seen and experienced first hand people guarantee against oil and oil still pass inspection.

This thread http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... est#p26581 discusses a paper test, but I don't see any real life test examples.

I think you typically get what Stan said "If I were an inspection judge and saw no sign of liquid on or around the wheel, I would conclude that the lubricant was dry."

I think people get caught up in the wrong things. The real thing should be "not to foul the track". I saw a kids car look like you dumped the graphite container when it was tipped sideways to be inspected - what a mess.

Then take the definition of Dry itself is still vague.

dry
adjective \ˈdrī\

: having no or very little water or liquid

: no longer wet

: having no rain or little rain


Is the air your breathing right now wet or dry?

Pledge goes on wet but is allowed to dry? If it totally dried it would be like paint or it would blow off like dust? I am not sure pledge totally dries.



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