Wheels Suck!

General discussions for car and semi-truck racers.
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Gtdhw
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Wheels Suck!

Post by Gtdhw » Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:51 pm

Lol

I built a run-out gauge based on FS's design, then proceeded to test my wheels, even went & bought 5 new tubes from the Scout store.

WOW! is all I can say. What a race saving device to have on hand! I'm building 2 cars myself this year, and my two scouts are building their two, so I need 15 (one RR for me) "good" wheels. Out of the 40 wheels that I have, I have exactly 4 "good" USA wheels, 4 "decent" USA wheels, and a "decent" set of 4 China reds (don't want to use those, as they look to be a thicker treaded/heavier wheel). I guess it's time to head back to the Scout store and buy more tubes!

Measurements on tape are outer edge, center, and inner edge)

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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:41 pm

Unfortunately, as time goes by with molds, they get worse and worse. Of course, some of your bad wheels can be used for the raised wheels on your cars.


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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Speedster » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:30 am

You will probably have camber on all the wheels on the ground. Choose the 2 best ones with the good inner edge for the rears and the best one with the good outer edge for the DFW. A word of caution. It's very difficult to make a round wheel.



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Gtdhw
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Gtdhw » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:09 am

1* camber on both rear wheels (if that), and straight axles so that their treads still remain "flat" all across the track as per our rules. Straight drilled & straight axles up front, both with treads flat. The 3WRR that I'm building is just for fun, and will only see one run down the track (and that will only be at District (if we make it), since our pack track is plastic with no center rail.

Just out of curiosity, what is the cutoff for an "acceptable" wheel for you fast guys? After seeing the range, I was thinking .003"? Although with some more wheels, I'm hoping to get it down to .002".


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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by birddog » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:54 pm

For what it's worth, I've never tested a wheel for run out. I just grab 3 wheels from the same mold number and use them without any testing what so ever.

We've never lost a race at the pack or district level, so I doubt we are just "lucky". I suspect the other methods we employ overcome any loss we see by using wheels that are not round or have poor run out. We do polish the bores well and wax them. Other than that, I don't touch the rest of the wheel.

My advice would be to focus on things that may have more of an impact. Well drilled holes, well polished axles and well polished bores and a car with good aero and weight placement are likely more important than wheel run out.

just my experience,

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Gtdhw
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Gtdhw » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:17 pm

I have never tested wheels for roundness before this year, and never done anything to the the bores, other than put graphite in them while installing the axles. We've always put a lot of attention into drilling true holes, polishing the axles, and we had a "decent" layout for weight our first four years. Never lost a den or pack race, but always fell just short at District never finishing better than 3rd.

This year, we changed body design, weight placement, and I've learned up on prepping the bores correctly. Hopefully all of this together, combined with what we've done right in the past, will get us over that hump. I can see moderately good wheels not having too much of an overall effect, but those +.010" out-of-round wheels, I could see causing a slow down.

Here's why I like this tool (besides the obvious). My 11 year old came home, and was all about learning the tool. So was my 7 year old! I think that it's absolutely awesome that both of my boys have now used their first "precision" tool. Not only use it, but actually understand what they were doing, how to read the gauge, what the readings meant, and how to record their findings. To me (being a millwright), that's priceless, even if we only had four wheels to use, no matter how bad they were. To me, it makes the pwd experience just that much more beneficial for my boys (and me seeing them do it). By the time mine top out (like my 11 year old just did), they have a very good understanding, and multiple years experience, with a band saw, drill, file, reading/taking measurements with a scale, sanding, painting, polishing, weight placement, and now reading a precision instrument. As an involved Dad, THIS is is the joy that I get out the pwd every year, win or lose (of course I want them win too! but that is just a bonus IMO).


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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Speedster » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:35 pm

I think you'll find a lot of wheels with .003 or less. They should serve you well with good bore prep.



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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by birddog » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:53 pm

Gtdhw wrote: As an involved Dad, THIS is is the joy that I get out the pwd every year, win or lose (of course I want them win too! but that is just a bonus IMO).
I agree completely. The journey, spending quality time with your son in the workshop is what PWD is really all about. The process (methods or tools used) is completely secondary to that!

birddog



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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Scrollsawer » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:24 pm

birddog wrote:For what it's worth, I've never tested a wheel for run out. I just grab 3 wheels from the same mold number and use them without any testing what so ever.

We've never lost a race at the pack or district level, so I doubt we are just "lucky". I suspect the other methods we employ overcome any loss we see by using wheels that are not round or have poor run out. We do polish the bores well and wax them. Other than that, I don't touch the rest of the wheel.

My advice would be to focus on things that may have more of an impact. Well drilled holes, well polished axles and well polished bores and a car with good aero and weight placement are likely more important than wheel run out.

just my experience,

birddog
I agree with this assessment. We have used wheels straight out of the box, and ran them successfully with detailed polishing work on the wheel bore, and inner and outer hub and outer tread. I am also a big proponent of axle prep, and would rank that right up there with wheel prep in terms of efficiencies gained.

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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by davet » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:21 am

We measure ours with a dial indicator. Since we run canted rears and a bent DFW we measure the wheels according to where they'll be placed on the car. Measure the wheel along the tread surface but at the inside edge and again at the outside edge. They will frequently be different just across the tread. We find the wheels that are truest on the inside edge (between .001-.002) out of round to run fine for the rears. The wheel with the lowest runout on the outer edge is the one we run as the DFW. I had a wheel once that was .011 out of round. I've seen a couple wheels that were as much as .002 different between inside edge and outside edge. Hope this helps and you can use those wheels anyways.



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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Gtdhw » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:21 pm

davet wrote:We measure ours with a dial indicator. Since we run canted rears and a bent DFW we measure the wheels according to where they'll be placed on the car. Measure the wheel along the tread surface but at the inside edge and again at the outside edge. They will frequently be different just across the tread. We find the wheels that are truest on the inside edge (between .001-.002) out of round to run fine for the rears. The wheel with the lowest runout on the outer edge is the one we run as the DFW. I had a wheel once that was .011 out of round. I've seen a couple wheels that were as much as .002 different between inside edge and outside edge. Hope this helps and you can use those wheels anyways.

Thanks for the reply.

In the first pic, there are many .011 & .012 bad wheels. I've learned by looking closer, that the majority of the .007 & worse wheels, are not necessarily out of round per say, but the bore is way off center causing the readings. We will be using the indicators on the "good" wheels that find, as a way to separate and use the "best" wheels. I also have the inside, center, and outside tread measured & recorded on each wheel, for just the purpose that you mentioned (even though we have to run "4 flat").


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davet
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by davet » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:36 pm

That pic of yours would strike terror in the hearts of the parents of your sons' competitors.



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Gtdhw
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Gtdhw » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:48 am

Have 16 wheels that are .0005 or better now.





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Scrollsawer
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by Scrollsawer » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:24 pm

davet wrote:That pic of yours would strike terror in the hearts of the parents of your sons' competitors.
Lol, this is true.

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race#67
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Re: Wheels Suck!

Post by race#67 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:38 pm

Wow, how many did you go through to get that many under .001? I assume the colored ones are USA, not Revell?



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