Improving car between pack and district/council race?

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GoneFission
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

Stan Pope wrote:Hmmm ... lessee if I've understood your logic ...
1. My car won over the other boys in my pack.
2. I make another car that is faster than my first one to race in the district.
3. It is unfair to the other boys in my pack because this new car would not have beaten them.

No, I don't understand :!:
The assumption that it's faster is yours. My assumption is that it's just different. May be faster, may be slower. Could be a LOT slower - I see it happen every year. Last year's first places often don't place the next year. Of course, I forget sometimes that I am talking to the truly experienced (if not obsessed) here.

No one I have met in my District for the past 5 years would be able to tell that the new car is faster than the old until it goes down the track. No one I know has a home track for testing their cars on. Every year (or every car) is a crapshoot. We do what we know to do the best we can, and then we run the cars and see how we did. That's kind of why we run our pack races - to draw each year's fastest cars.

I do not like the substitution for the sake of substitution. I do not believe it is unfair to the scout to race his winning car. I also do not in any way disagree with improving the balance or axle treatments. I just think a new car just for fun at a race you had to qualify for is not right.
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Cory
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Cory »

GoneFission wrote:What does the qualifying race represent if not the gathering of the qualified cars?

Why have a race where the vehicle you use to separate qualifiers will have no bearing on the next level of racing?
Gee. In my nine years of organizing, I always felt like I was in a room full of people, not a room full of cars.

And I always presented the awards to the boys for their skill and creativity in building a fast car. All this time I should have been presenting the awards to the cars for being so fast.

I guess there's no reason to believe that same skill and creativity might be present in another car built by the same boy. After all, it's the car that's fast, not the boy.

Wow, thanks for straightening me out.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

OK, I've thought some more on this topic. To me the idea that the pack races separate the fastest cars to continue racing at district level (and they should therefore be the same cars) is so basic that I'm having trouble enunciating my ideas clearly.

1) Cory and Stan - your last argument was basically, "I've made a faster car, so why wouldn't I race it?" Well, why wait 'till district then? Have it ready for heat 8. If it's faster, no one should complain.

Well, Cory was more about substitution is just OK, because it is. I respect Cory's opinion, but I disagree.

2) Stan - and I mean this as a compliment - I think you've lost some of the thrill of winning.

You're the Notre Dame football of Pinewood Derby racing. Your victories aren't in question, it's the magnitude that's up for grabs. You said as much in your post about going to Rockford when you observed that your younger Grandchild only won by inches, not up to family standards. My sincere congratulations - I hope to achieve a fraction of your success.

With your skill, experience, tooling and methods, you can punch out a dominating car in your sleep. I believe that a chimpanzee that followed your direction could make a district winning car. These are not the circumstances I am writing from.

The scouts in my pack (and those I know in my district) put their car on the track and have no idea how well it will do. Will it be fast, will it be slow? Will it reach the bottom of the track? Do you remember what it was like to build a car with your son and have no idea what would happen on that first race?

The idea that we'll just punch out faster car later is not a given to us. That someone would just substitute another car, having won the pack with a different car seems wrong. The competition separated a car. A specific car.

You guys like manufactured "for instances" - what if the first non-qualifier builds a new car and it's faster than your new car? Do you yield to the new fastest car? It has lost no more pack races than your new car. Your car has won no more pack races than his new car. In short, by what merit does your new car represent your pack?

Before you start in on this, I know the boy's involved, I have 5 years of doing this - he just doesn't cross the finish line. You cannot separate the car from the event.

To paraphrase King Arthur's legend, "The boy and his car are one". Unless there was a tragedy with the original, bring it. Scout's Honor.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

Cory wrote:
GoneFission wrote:What does the qualifying race represent if not the gathering of the qualified cars?

Why have a race where the vehicle you use to separate qualifiers will have no bearing on the next level of racing?
Gee. In my nine years of organizing, I always felt like I was in a room full of people, not a room full of cars.

And I always presented the awards to the boys for their skill and creativity in building a fast car. All this time I should have been presenting the awards to the cars for being so fast.

I guess there's no reason to believe that same skill and creativity might be present in another car built by the same boy. After all, it's the car that's fast, not the boy.

Wow, thanks for straightening me out.
Cory,

Well, I could write boy and car, boy and car, boy and car each time. As I assume you can tell, I'm referring to the car in the shorthand because we aren't discussing whether the boy is coming, just which car comes. Therefore, I focus on the car because the boy is a given.

How disingenious of you to shift the focus of the discussion.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

GoneFission wrote:The assumption that it's faster is yours. My assumption is that it's just different.
If I didn't have good reason to believe that the new one was faster, then I'd race the one that I raced in the pack races. (My kitchen table seldom lies about which of two otherwise comparable cars is the better one!)
Stan
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Cory
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Cory »

GoneFission wrote:
Cory,

Well, I could write boy and car, boy and car, boy and car each time. As I assume you can tell, I'm referring to the car in the shorthand because we aren't discussing whether the boy is coming, just which car comes. Therefore, I focus on the car because the boy is a given.

How disingenious of you to shift the focus of the discussion.
I apologize for the sarcasm.

However, I wasn't attempting to shift the focus. In my mind, I was simply trying to focus on what I think is important here, which is the boy. To me, the car is very much a secondary thing.

Overall, I think this is simply a matter of opinion, and our opinions happen to be different.

There is one thing of which I'm certain though: I'm glad I'm not a judge at your District Bake-Off. ;)
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Darin McGrew »

GoneFission wrote:1) Cory and Stan - your last argument was basically, "I've made a faster car, so why wouldn't I race it?" Well, why wait 'till district then? Have it ready for heat 8. If it's faster, no one should complain.
There's a difference between substituting a new car during the middle of the event, and substituting a new car between two separate (albeit related) events.

My attitude (expressed in more detail in an earlier discussion) is that it is unfair for the organizers of the district derby to prohibit improvements between local and district derby unless the cars are impounded. I haven't seen anyone disagreeing with this position.

But where do you draw the line between "improvements" and "substituting a new car"?

And once you've drawn that line, how do you enforce it fairly?
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Stan Pope
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

GoneFission wrote:The idea that we'll just punch out faster car later is not a given to us.

Well, it isn't exactly like "punching out a top car."

Actually, the way I work with youngsters is that they build (hack, gouge, dig, cut, rasp, sand, file, smooth, etc.) I start out by guiding their hands, but my hands are off before they are half done with the step. It is their car! If they aren't building, I'm not helping! If I think that their workmanship on some aspect leaves too much to be desired, I"ll suggest that they try again on another piece of wood or wheel or axle. Then they will either take my suggestion or overrule me!

Now the top three cars have been selected to go to district. If Johnny finished #3 in the pack race should he be consigned to no better than #3 finish at district, with no realistic chance to beat the guys who beat him in the pack race?

Okay, we take stock of the old car. It was a distant third, so chances of a trophy at district is really slim. You want to try to do better? Okay.

We look at the wheels ... these two roll straight on their own, but a toothpick in the bore bobs up and down as the wheel rolls. And these two wobble their way across the table ... Let's have another run at those wheels.

We look at the axles. Hmmm .. got a bit carried away with the file, didn't we!!! Maybe we should have another try at making these new nails into good axles.

We look at the body. The left rear axle slot is broken ... chipped out! The glue didn't hold! Where's the piece that chipped out? Still on the track? But that was last week. Where is it now? Arg!!! Can we repair it? Can we replace it?

In summary, a youngster who brings his car and his mom or dad to visit me isn't guaranteed anything. What he takes home is really up to him, his attitude, and his ability to learn.

No, we don't "punch out winners."
GoneFission wrote:You guys like manufactured "for instances" - what if the first non-qualifier builds a new car and it's faster than your new car? Do you yield to the new fastest car? It has lost no more pack races than your new car. Your car has won no more pack races than his new car. In short, by what merit does your new car represent your pack?


One has won the right at the pack races, the other didn't.
Stan
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by mwebb »

Some District tracks are much longer or “S” shaped. If you have discussed the theory of where to put the weight to have best performance on your 32 ft Pack track, and your Cub believes you and you make a car that runs way faster than all the other cars in your Pack,
You have an interesting situation. The 2nd and third cars could be that way because they are weighted more to the center just due to mediocre design. Now if you do not move the center of mass forward, you could lose to the same car you beat at the Pack. Now what is the lesson your Cub learns? I don’t think he will understand the phenomenon of over-optimization to do best on the short track cost him the District because that track rewards a less radical (dumb) car design, he will assume the #2 car “figured out” something and made his car faster and old Dad isn’t as smart as he thinks.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Good point, mw. If you are lucky enough to be able to find out what kind of track the district/council race will run on, then you may face some reengineering between pack and district race. In my district, the district track conditions are publicized well in advance. In my grandson's council, the "think the races will probably be run on 32' Piantedosi", maybe wooden, but the chairman won't really know until he sees what shows up that morning! Not sure how to help Stanley plan for that one! I think that we probably assume 32' Piantedosi and hope we don't give a big advantage to the boys from the pack that brought the 70' track! :(

Differing pack and district tracks is certainly a situation that begs for major rework between the races ... not quite like putting a top-fuel dragster in the Indy 500, but same idea. :)

Around here, we try to stay "not too exotic" with the district tracks. Preference now is for 32' wooden Piantedosi. They seem to have excellent lane equality and their geometry is similar to the tracks that most packs have access to. If a local leader asks about what kind of track to buy/build, I certainly suggest that they stay consistent with the usual district race tracks' geometry, and, if their budget allows, to "grab an Oar!" Creates fewer challenges.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Stan Pope wrote:If you are lucky enough to be able to find out what kind of track the district/council race will run on, then you may face some reengineering between pack and district race.
Our Packs track is old and hand made (very rough). I should of put the Cf a little farther forward for stability. The Disctrict track is a very smooth wooden track, probably a Piantedosi. I'm sure I could be more aggresive on it. Ironically, our Packs track is the Districts backup. They are the only 4 lane tracks in the District.
Cory wrote:What I think is important here is the boy. To me, the car is very much a secondary thing.
What is most important is a fun positive experience for the boys. The cars are just a way to get the fathers involved. In many cases (most of us), too involved. :lol:
Last edited by Pinewood Daddy on Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:If you are lucky enough to be able to find out what kind of track the district/council race will run on, then you may face some reengineering between pack and district race.
Our Packs track is old and hand made (very rough). I should of put the Cf a little farther back for stability. The Disctrict track is a very smooth wooden track, probably a Piantedosi. I'm sure I could be more aggresive on it. Ironically, our Packs track is the Districts backup. They are the only 4 lane tracks in the District.
That's a quandry! Center the CM and run 4 wheels to get stability on a rough track or push the CM back and lift wheel(s) to take advantage of the smooth track?

We keep 4 different tracks pretty busy for the district races. All at least 3 lane 32' wooden P's! Not sure if we will have a 4-laner available for the finals this year... if not, I'll have to have a 3-lane 5-car PN chart set up and ready to go!
Pinewood Daddy wrote:What is most important is a fun positive experience for the boys. The cars are just a way to get the fathers involved. In many cases (most of us), too involved. :lol:
Spoken like a true pinehead! 8)
Stan
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by wardrocks »

My Pack doesn't allow a stretched wheel base. My district does. In order to be competitive with those packs who allow an extended wheel base, my son and I have to build a new car.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by FRANKLIN WHALEY »

I'm all for tweaking cars between races. Especially if a problem spot can be located. Sometimes stop sections are hard on wheels. I had the father of one of my boys ask if I could look at their car before the state race. We checked it out , didn't find any damage. But the car wouldn't roll straight backwards. So we used Stan's wax paper method and got it rolling perfect backward and forward. I'm positive if we had'nt done this the car would not have won the state race. As for building a whole new car. I would have say only if it could be tested on the track prior to the race to be sure it was faster than the old one. If someone had a second or third place car at the local level, it would be like not having a desire to win if they didn't try to improve the car.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Well, Grandson has come and gone. I think that he is ready to race.

We raised the bottoms of his slots with toothpicks and glue. The slots were deeper than was effective when drilling with the ProBody tool, so alignment was rough first time around.

While that was drying, I worked with him to improve his technique with the axles ... the axles from his first try ... as raced with the pack ... had a lot of nicks on the shaft. We focused on slow, steady control of the file. "Slow", I found, is a concept totally foreign to Tiger Cubs! But, he got that down, too, and these axles looked and felt much better.

I scraped stray paint off the treads! It wasn't reallly thick, but it was enough to throw the wheels a couple of thousandths out of round. (When building is done in one short visit, some things happen out of optimum order. In this case, painting had been done at home with the wheels in place.)

After alignment and hot gluing the axles in place, he applied a few hundredths of an ounce of hot glue over the top rear of the car to bring the weight up to 4.99 oz. ... after we talked about how to keep the stray strands of hot glue away from the wheels! These were inch-long beads oriented with the direction of motion.

Instructions for home included a daily dose of graphite and spin-in. I don't foresee any problems there. I do expect that the shark-blue color will be graphite-gray by race day, though.

I think that the car is a lot more race-ready now!
Stan
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