Improving car between pack and district/council race?

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Stan Pope
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Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

GoneFission wrote:... our district expectation is you bring the car what qualified ya.
Interesting issue from a separate thread: "Should a youngster be allowed to improve his car between the qualifying pack race and the subsequent district/council race?"

Preparation for and participating in the pack races is a learning experience for the youngster and, often, for his mentor. The preparation for and participation in the district race offers similar opportunities. Should they be denied? In my opinion, no. If the youngster/mentor team has learned and wish to apply that learning promptly, rather than waiting another year, then they should be allowed to do so.

Are there other considerations that I'm missing? For instance, would this be perceived as giving that youngster an advantage over those who did not qualify to participate in the district/council race? Is the risk of doing more harm than good to the entrant's car too great? ...
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Darin McGrew »

Stan Pope wrote:Are there other considerations that I'm missing?
As I said in an earlier discussion, I think it is unfair for the organizers of the district race to prohibit improvements between local and district races (unless the cars are impounded).
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Stan Pope
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Oh oh, we must have discussed this before. Oh, well ... Sorry.

Impound? Man, I wouldn't want to be the one who is responsibe for those 350 treasures!
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by kcobb »

I agree that the scout should be able to "tune up" his car prior to the districts if need be. My stepson took 2nd as a wolf and had one of the top three in our pack. However he asked me if he could speed it up for the districts. He knew where he stood, and also knew he'd be racing three of the guys he'd raced in the pack already. I couldn't fault him for wanting to try harder.

We redid our nails together, after finding and reading this wonderful forum and made a matched set of #8 tires after looking through a few boxes I had from our tiger year. (Bought a few extra incase we made horrible mistakes the first time out..it's been many years). Anyway I'm not sure if the car was faster, or slower than the original. It looked much better, the spintesting was better, but ultimately we didn't place in the districts. Don't know where we stood as a matter of fact. Breaks of the game I guess.

Anyway that evening, he was playing with the car and said, "You know this is the best car I've ever had". That pretty much summed it up for me, and I was proud of the work he learned during the process!
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

We re-tune the cars. If we qualified for District, my sons re-polish the axles and wheels. Then they stay in graphite (wheels and axles, not boys) until time for final assembly. Last year, I helped my older son shift a few grams of weight back a little when the car under-performed at the pack race.

A handy tip for wedge builders - we paint several paper dots at the time as the car. We putty the "full" weight holes, but cover the third with a dot cut to fit the front hole. If we need to add or remove just a bit of weight, we peel the dot off. At almost any distance beyond arm's length, the dot is invisible.

We just wouldn't build a new car. Cubs and cars qualify jointly, but the cars aren't frozen.

The problem we have is a Pack race in mid-January and a District in late March. That's a long time when you're 8 or 9 years old. Or 11. Or 44.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

I plan on re-tuning my car. The pack race was definitely a learning experience.

Our packs track is very rough requiring a conservative center of gravity. The district track is very smooth. I tuned the car for a smooth track possibly losing a little time. I also didn't get the alignment as good as I wanted. The car ran fairly straight forward and backward, but the wheels were pegged in or out. Only 3 wheels were touching, the district rule require all wheels to roll (but not neccessarily bear weight).

The district race is 10 weeks after the pack race, leaving plenty of time to improve and conform to the stricter rules.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:I plan on re-tuning my car.
Good plan! More importantly, what does your son plan to do regarding his car? :)

As we were saying our goodbyes following his race, I asked grandson Stanley if he wanted to try to make his car faster before the council races. (He did not "blow the doors off" any of the competition. Big Brother had no one within 3 car lengths in his last pack races.) His answer was, of course, "Yes!" Now we see if he can convince Daddy to make the 90 minute drive with him to come visit! (It is a 90 minute drive each way, so this is not an evening activity ... it will take most of a weekend.)
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Stan Pope wrote:More importantly, what does your son plan to do regarding his car? :)
Good point, Stan. It's too easy to take control of the car without input from my son. He said he wants it to win. There's not much he can do.

I'm going to work on the alignment to keep the rear wheels floating on the axels. As I think you said; since there is 4 times the weight on the rear wheels, there will be 4 times the breaking torque when the wheels rub on the body or axel head.

Next year (Bear) I will have him do more of the shaping of the body, including designing the shape.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

I was pretty sure that I knew what you meant, Pw Ddy, but I had to "yank your chain" just a bit. :) Good luck to you both!
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Thanks Stan. You're an inspiration to us all! :D
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by wedgie »

I think a boy should be able to make any improvement ness. EXCEPT put in a new car. I think it should be the one you qualified with. I am not exactly sure why, maybe its from a stand point of if you win some how it will be looked at like you have cheated. Wait what am I saying as long as the boy builds the car whats wrong with a kid trying to improve on anything in life. Have I made my point ???????????????????
gonna pull out another wedgie again this year
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

wedgie wrote:I think a boy should be able to make any improvement ness. EXCEPT put in a new car. I think it should be the one you qualified with. I am not exactly sure why, maybe its from a stand point of if you win some how it will be looked at like you have cheated. Wait what am I saying as long as the boy builds the car whats wrong with a kid trying to improve on anything in life. Have I made my point ???????????????????
You made your point, and a few question marks too, I see.

My viewpoint on building a new car verus repolishing or buffing up the existing car is based on the idea of qualifying for the next race. You placed ahead of someone to earn that right. If you substitute a new car, that one did not qualify. That car did not prove its worth by winning the pack race. To me, it's an issue of what's fair to the boys that did NOT qualify.

By all means, make as many cars as you want. It's fun to do and the boys enjoy making things. Improve all you want just because it's good experience. But don't defeat the scouts in your pack with one car and run another at districts - I don't believe that's fair. Not to the other participants, but to the non-participants you eliminated. If the next race run is an open race, then do what you like.
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Stan Pope »

Hmmm ... lessee if I've understood your logic ...
1. My car won over the other boys in my pack.
2. I make another car that is faster than my first one to race in the district.
3. It is unfair to the other boys in my pack because this new car would not have beaten them.

No, I don't understand :!:
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by Cory »

Consider the case of Dale.

Dale's car crashed during a practice run and is now "totaled". The crash was not Dale's fault. In fact, Dale took every precaution to keep the crash from happening.

Dale and his team had prepared another car, but now they're being told they can't race it next week at the big race.

Of course this last thing would never happen, because Dale is Dale Earnhardt and this is NASCAR we're talking about.

All the NASCAR teams bring two or more cars to every race, and those cars are selected from a larger stable of cars, often numbering in the dozens. Ultimately, they select one car which is the car they enter into the race. The history of that particular car is not important.

It is the history of that particular team and driver which is important. The team and driver qualify for the race, not the car.

Why would you hold a Cub Scout to a more stringent standard?
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Re: Improving car between pack and district/council race?

Post by GoneFission »

Cory wrote:Consider the case of Dale.

Dale's car crashed during a practice run and is now "totaled". The crash was not Dale's fault. In fact, Dale took every precaution to keep the crash from happening.

Dale and his team had prepared another car, but now they're being told they can't race it next week at the big race.

Of course this last thing would never happen, because Dale is Dale Earnhardt and this is NASCAR we're talking about.

All the NASCAR teams bring two or more cars to every race, and those cars are selected from a larger stable of cars, often numbering in the dozens. Ultimately, they select one car which is the car they enter into the race. The history of that particular car is not important.

It is the history of that particular team and driver which is important. The team and driver qualify for the race, not the car.

Why would you hold a Cub Scout to a more stringent standard?
If a car that has qualified is replaced, the driver starts at the back of the field with the replacement car, as close to a disqualification as the rules allow. But that's in real racing with multimillion dollar budgets where sponsors aren't interested in seeing their investments in the paddock. The also have short-track cars, road-track cars, superspeedway cars, etc.

Here we are talking about a choice to build a new car, having won the right to represent your pack in a higher level race. Not a destroyed car, not a totaled car, not a damaged car, just a new car.

What does the qualifying race represent if not the gathering of the qualified cars? Why have a race where the vehicle you use to separate qualifiers will have no bearing on the next level of racing? Just pick names from a hat and then build the "real" car.

What penalty am I advocating imposing? How am I hurting the scout. All I advocate is bring the pack winning cars to the event that winning the pack qualified them for.
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