To Race or Not To Race?

[Jungle Jim]

Scout shows up for the race with a car that doesn't pass inspection. What type of modification(s) should be allowed?
Please reply based upon the race being at different levels; i.e. Pack, District, Council.
Feel free to add something I may have forgotten.

Car is overweight.

Car is too long, high, low or wide.

Car has an unapproved shape.

Car has illegal axles.

Wheels are not properly placed in axle slots or perpendicular to body.

Wheels are illegal.

[Stan Pope]

I think that the Scout and his partner (parent, grandparent, etc.) should be allowed to correct deficiencies until they pass inspection or run out of time. If it takes longer than is available before start of racing, then give them losses for the rounds missed. I don't think that it matters whether the competition is pack, district or council.

If they have an hour and a fresh car kit, let 'em have at it and, if necessary, race an unpainted block!

This is a situation in which competition by total heat times would make a big difference as compared to multiple elimination, where a good late arrival can still "win it all." (No-chart multiple elimination racing is ideal for dealing with late arrivals and cars that have difficulty passing inspection.)

[pwdxtreme]

I agree with Stan here.

I help out at the Pack and District level. We allow the Scout/Parent to make repairs/modifications to the car until time exipres for the registration. If we can, we will even allow a little extra time. We set up a work table with spare parts (wheel/axle kits, weight).

Last resort is to DQ the car. We allow it run anyway and never tell the scout that it was DQ'd. We quietly tell the parent.

[Jungle Jim]

I think that the Scout and his partner (parent, grandparent, etc.) should be allowed to correct deficiencies until they pass inspection or run out of time. If it takes longer than is available before start of racing, then give them losses for the rounds missed. I don't think that it matters whether the competition is pack, district or council.

So a Scout at a District or Council race who shows up with a major violation, like non-BSA wheels, should be given the same consideration as he would at a Pack race?

[Jungle Jim]

I agree with Stan here.

I help out at the Pack and District level. We allow the Scout/Parent to make repairs/modifications to the car until time exipres for the registration. If we can, we will even allow a little extra time. We set up a work table with spare parts (wheel/axle kits, weight).

So any modification that would be neccesary is ok?

This would be ok even after the Scout's car should have been inspected at 1 or 2 previous events? Events in which he most likely would have done well enough to have advanced in light of the fact of having an "illegal" car.

[Jungle Jim]

Last resort is to DQ the car. We allow it run anyway and never tell the scout that it was DQ'd. We quietly tell the parent.

Yes, that is the last resort. But the judge did not build the car - most likely . And as such, why would he allow it to race?

[FRANKLIN WHALEY]

Our rules are pretty relaxed. But we do have cars come in over weight. So far no after market wheels or axles have been seen at our local race. We inspect all potential spots for possible violations. If a problem is spotted we give the car owner up to race time to correct it. Our state race rules are more relaxed than our local ones. The cars don't have to qualify to enter. Some don't have local tracks so this is their first opportunity to race. Even though there are rules that state only wheels and axles from the RA kit are permitted. There are plenty of BSA, and after market kits being used. The differences are very easy to spot. So far we haven't totally DQ'ed anyone. I hope we'll never have too! Especially at the local level it would cause hard feelings that might not be easy to mend. I would hate for anyone to stop coming to church over a pinewood derby.

[Barga Racing]

First off let me say that our council rules state that these rules are to be used at the pack, district, and council levels and they also state that the same car must be used for pack, district, and council race. They do not however say that you can not work on the car between races. In light of these rules I would say that any modificaton needed should be allowed at the pack level. At district level wheel changes or reorientation should probably be allowed because they may have changed them after pack race. But as far as car too big or illegal design I almost think they should be DQed on the spot at least at council anyway. Because it is not the same car they qualified with. I can see a car with an illegal dimension or illegal wheels slipping through pack inspection but it should never be allowed to slip through District inspection. Even wheels could have been changed between district and council to gain an advantage so you have to give benefit of doubt and allow them to change wheels.
I was proud of our council Saturday. They were inspecting closely and hammering people pretty hard on wheel violations. The last 2 years I have had people complain that I inspected too tough at district. They said that council did not inspect that thorough and it was unfair because it put our district kids at a disadvantage to other districts that let stuff slide. I spoke with the council chair person last year about peoples concerns. Maybe it helped.
Sorry for getting off there. Back to the original post. I believe any alteration needed at pack should be allowed but major ones should not be needed (or even allowed) at disrict and council.

[pwdxtreme]

So any modification that would be neccesary is ok?

This would be ok even after the Scout's car should have been inspected at 1 or 2 previous events? Events in which he most likely would have done well enough to have advanced in light of the fact of having an "illegal" car.

Why punish the scout because the adults can't follow the rules. At our district races this year alone, the first 20 cars had to go over to the work area and make modifications. Only 1 or 2 were for serious infractions. Most were for being overweight.

Scouting is about the boys; not the adults. So if the parent can not read the rules (even thought they were given to all the packs and posted on our web site) why shouldn't they be given an oppertunity to fix the car so the boy can race.

[pwdxtreme]

Yes, that is the last resort. But the judge did not build the car - most likely . And as such, why would he allow it to race?

As I said in my other post, it is about the boys, not the adults. What harm is there in lettting the car race but not scoring the time. The boy gets to see it race and just thinks it was not fast enough to win.

[Stan Pope]

It appears to me from the original question and the follow-up comments that there is an underlying assumption that folks are trying to cheat. That has not been my experience. Rather, they are trying to do as well as they can within the rules. Usually this pushes them right up against rule boundaries, and sometimes they stray beyond.

Many of the folks posting here are thoroughly aware of the details of their local rules and the differences in material sources, etc. The bulk of racers are not so aware. When they go to the hobby shop looking for more/better, they don't get good guidance. The clerk who is selling the goodies isn't motivated to know the local rules regarding this specific competition. (The fact that they don't sell BSA kits may be part of this!)

Many racers who competed their way to District or Council races will have seen shortcomings in their cars and will try to improve them. Others will not have had to win (or even compete) in Pack racing to participate at District or Council races. Either way, substantial new work is often present at District and Council races.

Those who competed at Pack races are subjected to varying quality in the inspection. Sometimes those inspectors are aware of District and Council rules, and sometimes not! The Pack may even have its own rules, either more or less restrictive than those of District or Council. (Doesn't make sense to me either, but they are out there!)

Council rules have a problem ... they don't have a good path for personal promotion, and often there is not even a name/phone number that anyone can call for clarification. District rules have the District Roundtable meetings where the PWD Chairman will likely have some time to communicate and to be identified as a point of contact. (In our district, it will be a scheduled "Early Bird" session to talk about the rules and rule changes and inspection procedures.) But, the audiences for these sessions are usually one or two organizers from each Pack, and then they go back to the Pack meetings and try to get the same information across to parents, many of whom have never even seen a PWD race!

[Barga Racing]

It appears to me from the original question and the follow-up comments that there is an underlying assumption that folks are trying to cheat. That has not been my experience. Rather, they are trying to do as well as they can within the rules. Usually this pushes them right up against rule boundaries, and sometimes they stray beyond.

I agree to a point. You can always tell who they are too. The ones that claim they did not know any better than to reshape thier wheels, but for some reason brought a complete extra set are a dead giveaway. There was a guy at council that had coned hubs. He claimed all he did was push them against the side of car to grind in graphite and that is what made them look like that. And he did not bring any extra wheels. I honestly believe he did not know any better than to cone them but I do not believe he did it by working in graphite. I did not have any extra wheels with me and apparently no one else did either because his son did not get to race. What a shame.

[Jungle Jim]

Our rules are pretty relaxed. ...<snip>...
I would hate for anyone to stop coming to church over a pinewood derby.

Yea, that would be quite unfortunate. It seems when you have fewer rules you have fewer problems at the inspection table, but unfortunately more at the race track. And the "bigger" the race gets, i.e. more people who dont know each other, the more of the grumblings you get.

[Jungle Jim]

First off let me say that our council rules state that these rules are to be used at the pack, district, and council levels and they also state that the same car must be used for pack, district, and council race.

This sounds like a good, strong basis.

They do not however say that you can not work on the car between races. In light of these rules I would say that any modificaton needed should be allowed at the pack level.

Agreed here. This is where alot of scouts and parents learn the ins and outs when a workshop of some sort isn't/hasn't been offered or attended.

At district level wheel changes or reorientation should probably be allowed because they may have changed them after pack race. But as far as car too big or illegal design I almost think they should be DQed on the spot at least at council anyway. Because it is not the same car they qualified with. I can see a car with an illegal dimension or illegal wheels slipping through pack inspection but it should never be allowed to slip through District inspection. Even wheels could have been changed between district and council to gain an advantage so you have to give benefit of doubt and allow them to change wheels.

So a "body" violation would be a reason for dq on the spot, but not a wheel violation? ex: a notch cut out of the center, front nose area when the rules say this cant be done would be a worse infraction then wheels the have been shaved, canted and coned?

I was proud of our council Saturday. They were inspecting closely and hammering people pretty hard on wheel violations. The last 2 years I have had people complain that I inspected too tough at district. They said that council did not inspect that thorough and it was unfair because it put our district kids at a disadvantage to other districts that let stuff slide. I spoke with the council chair person last year about peoples concerns. Maybe it helped.
Sorry for getting off there. Back to the original post. I believe any alteration needed at pack should be allowed but major ones should not be needed (or even allowed) at disrict and council.

So a list distinguishing between major and minor violations and the effect of such violations would be neccesary to cars advancing onto the upper levels?

[Jungle Jim]

Why punish the scout because the adults can't follow the rules. At our district races this year alone, the first 20 cars had to go over to the work area and make modifications. Only 1 or 2 were for serious infractions. Most were for being overweight.

Yes, being overweight is the most common infraction. I dont believe you are punishing the Scout. How often have you ever seen a car that had to make a major mod in order to qualify have the work being done by the Scout. You dont It's being done by the parent. And it's how they react to the situation that has the most bearing on how the Scout reacts.

Scouting is about the boys; not the adults.

That is true, to varying degrees. It's more about the boys in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts (but thats a different story ).

So if the parent can not read the rules (even thought they were given to all the packs and posted on our web site) why shouldn't they be given an oppertunity to fix the car so the boy can race.

Agreed, as long as you're talking at the Pack level. But do you think that a car that has major violations should be allowed to compete against legal cars at an "advanced" level of racing?

If not, what violations should dq it?