To Race or Not To Race?

[Jungle Jim]

As I said in my other post, it is about the boys, not the adults. What harm is there in lettting the car race but not scoring the time. The boy gets to see it race and just thinks it was not fast enough to win.

Not everyone uses a "timed" system of racing. Most use elimination.

[Jungle Jim]

It appears to me from the original question and the follow-up comments that there is an underlying assumption that folks are trying to cheat. That has not been my experience. Rather, they are trying to do as well as they can within the rules. Usually this pushes them right up against rule boundaries, and sometimes they stray beyond.

Whenever you're pushing the envelope, you inevitably stray well into the gray. I applaud such ambitious thinking, as long as the Scout's been involved with it. The inspection process help them stay within the fold.

...<snip>...
Many racers who competed their way to District or Council races will have seen shortcomings in their cars and will try to improve them. Others will not have had to win (or even compete) in Pack racing to participate at District or Council races. Either way, substantial new work is often present at District and Council races.

District races - Yes , Council - should be next to none.

Those who competed at Pack races are subjected to varying quality in the inspection. Sometimes those inspectors are aware of District and Council rules, and sometimes not! The Pack may even have its own rules, either more or less restrictive than those of District or Council. (Doesn't make sense to me either, but they are out there!)

Yes they are out there and I've never quite understood the logic in it. And I must also sadly agree that a car can be subject to a poor inspection anywhere along its path.

Council rules have a problem ... they don't have a good path for personal promotion, and often there is not even a name/phone number that anyone can call for clarification. District rules have the District Roundtable meetings where the PWD Chairman will likely have some time to communicate and to be identified as a point of contact. (In our district, it will be a scheduled "Early Bird" session to talk about the rules and rule changes and inspection procedures.) But, the audiences for these sessions are usually one or two organizers from each Pack, and then they go back to the Pack meetings and try to get the same information across to parents, many of whom have never even seen a PWD race!

In our Council the DE's are to attend a meeting with the PWD committee. Here Q and A takes place and they are supposed to relay that info at their Roundtables. Every Pack has a contact person for rules clarification, their DE. The DE can then clarify or refer it to the comm.
That's the theory^^^^
Now the reality is that most dens will interpret the rules and hope for the best. And the reality of that is they are most often correct.

[Jungle Jim]

I agree to a point. You can always tell who they are too. The ones that claim they did not know any better than to reshape thier wheels, but for some reason brought a complete extra set are a dead giveaway. There was a guy at council that had coned hubs. He claimed all he did was push them against the side of car to grind in graphite and that is what made them look like that. And he did not bring any extra wheels. I honestly believe he did not know any better than to cone them but I do not believe he did it by working in graphite. I did not have any extra wheels with me and apparently no one else did either because his son did not get to race. What a shame.

Yes it is a shame .
But at the same time if he broke the rules, he should not have been allowed to race.

[Jungle Jim]

I agree to a point. You can always tell who they are too. The ones that claim they did not know any better than to reshape thier wheels, but for some reason brought a complete extra set are a dead giveaway. There was a guy at council that had coned hubs. He claimed all he did was push them against the side of car to grind in graphite and that is what made them look like that. And he did not bring any extra wheels. I honestly believe he did not know any better than to cone them but I do not believe he did it by working in graphite. I did not have any extra wheels with me and apparently no one else did either because his son did not get to race. What a shame.

Yes it is a shame .
But at the same time if he broke the rules, he should not have been allowed to race.

Hopefully this was not his last year and he'll learn from this.

[Darin McGrew]

The Pack may even have its own rules, either more or less restrictive than those of District or Council. (Doesn't make sense to me either, but they are out there!)

Yes they are out there and I've never quite understood the logic in it.

We had more relaxed rules than our regional derby. We included a list of differences on the rules page, but didn't make our rules more restrictive.

The differences were mostly that we allowed any car that would fit the track without interfering with other cars or with the start and finish gates. The regional derby had more restrictive height and width requirements. Those who were interested in the regional derby could restrict their design to meet its requirements. Those who "just built the car" would meet both sets of requirements.

And I must also sadly agree that a car can be subject to a poor inspection anywhere along its path.

Yep. The wheels in our (CSB) kits are fairly distinctive, and we've still had cases where our inspection team missed noticing cars that used non-standard (e.g., BSA, PineCar) wheels. If we catch such things on registration night, then they must be fixed before the car can be registered. Otherwise, the car races as the registration staff accepted it, even if the problem is noticed later.

But the fact that we let the car race (either by having more relaxed requirements, or by oversight) should have no bearing on the regional derby's inspection process. And if the car can be repaired in time for the reginal derby's registration, then it should be allowed to run. Even if that means replacing the wheels, modifying the car body, etc.

[Jungle Jim]

We had more relaxed rules than our regional derby. We included a list of differences on the rules page, but didn't make our rules more restrictive.

The differences were mostly that we allowed any car that would fit the track without interfering with other cars or with the start and finish gates. The regional derby had more restrictive height and width requirements. Those who were interested in the regional derby could restrict their design to meet its requirements. Those who "just built the car" would meet both sets of requirements.

This helps clear things up a bit.
If you'd hazard to guess, or perhaps know, what percent of cars build only at the relaxed standard and never have a desire to compete further?

[Jungle Jim]

Yep. The wheels in our (CSB) kits are fairly distinctive, and we've still had cases where our inspection team missed noticing cars that used non-standard (e.g., BSA, PineCar) wheels. If we catch such things on registration night, then they must be fixed before the car can be registered. Otherwise, the car races as the registration staff accepted it, even if the problem is noticed later.

But the fact that we let the car race (either by having more relaxed requirements, or by oversight) should have no bearing on the regional derby's inspection process. And if the car can be repaired in time for the reginal derby's registration, then it should be allowed to run. Even if that means replacing the wheels, modifying the car body, etc.

So do your car usually get inspected one day and then raced on another?

[Darin McGrew]

If you'd hazard to guess, or perhaps know, what percent of cars build only at the relaxed standard and never have a desire to compete further?

I'd guess that about 5% of the cars in our derby used designs that didn't fit inside the dimensions required by the regional derby.

On the flip side, only about 10% of the kids in our derby entered the regional derby. (Participation in the regional derby was open, which may not have been ideal for driving up attendance, but it did allow a number of smaller units to build derby cars and race them at the regional derby, when they didn't have a large enough group to pull off their own local derby.)

[Darin McGrew]

So do your car usually get inspected one day and then raced on another?

Yep. This past year's schedule was fairly typical. We handed out the kits on a Wednesday night (our normal meeting night). There were Saturday workshops the next 3 Saturday mornings. The derby was the evening of the 4th Saturday. Cars were inspected, registered, and impounded the Wednesday night before the derby.

[Darin McGrew]

If we catch such things on registration night, then they must be fixed before the car can be registered. Otherwise, the car races as the registration staff accepted it, even if the problem is noticed later.

So do your car usually get inspected one day and then raced on another?

Yes, but IMHO that is irrelevant. The same principle should apply when same-day registration is used. When irregularities are discovered during registration, the entrants should be allowed to correct the problems. When irregularities are discovered later, after the entrants can no longer fix the problem, cars should race as the inspectors accepted them during registration.

There could be exceptions (e.g., mercury capsules or model-rocket engines discovered during the race), but for normal irregularities (e.g., incorrect or modified wheels), I'd stand by this.

[Stan Pope]

(Participation in the regional derby was open, which may not have been ideal for driving up attendance, but it did allow a number of smaller units to build derby cars and race them at the regional derby, when they didn't have a large enough group to pull off their own local derby.)

Aha! But exactly what constitutes a "local derby?" It could have been part of one meeting during which time the cars are registered, inspected, and judged for design. Should there be more that want to race than "slightly restrictive" criteria would allow, then they could "draw straws" or some other fair "competition" to see who "won and placed in the unit race."

Ya, it sounds silly doesn't it! But the numbers work. The regional race promoters would probably find that such smaller units would gain by the motivation provided by "slightly restrictive" criteria ... prompting small units to join forces to hold a "real" derby.

[Jungle Jim]

I'd guess that about 5% of the cars in our derby used designs that didn't fit inside the dimensions required by the regional derby.

On the flip side, only about 10% of the kids in our derby entered the regional derby. (Participation in the regional derby was open, which may not have been ideal for driving up attendance, but it did allow a number of smaller units to build derby cars and race them at the regional derby, when they didn't have a large enough group to pull off their own local derby.)

Very good. Was wondering. Thanks

[Jungle Jim]

So do your car usually get inspected one day and then raced on another?

Yep. This past year's schedule was fairly typical. We handed out the kits on a Wednesday night (our normal meeting night). There were Saturday workshops the next 3 Saturday mornings. The derby was the evening of the 4th Saturday. Cars were inspected, registered, and impounded the Wednesday night before the derby.

Dont know if most Packs would be willing or able to handle their functions this way, but I like it.

[Jungle Jim]

If we catch such things on registration night, then they must be fixed before the car can be registered. Otherwise, the car races as the registration staff accepted it, even if the problem is noticed later.

So do your car usually get inspected one day and then raced on another?

Yes, but IMHO that is irrelevant. The same principle should apply when same-day registration is used. When irregularities are discovered during registration, the entrants should be allowed to correct the problems. When irregularities are discovered later, after the entrants can no longer fix the problem, cars should race as the inspectors accepted them during registration.

There could be exceptions (e.g., mercury capsules or model-rocket engines discovered during the race), but for normal irregularities (e.g., incorrect or modified wheels), I'd stand by this.

By this is take it you mean you stand by your judges. This is a good policy to have. We dont impound before the race date, but once a vehicle has been inspected and cleared to race, it races.

[Jungle Jim]

Aha! But exactly what constitutes a "local derby?" It could have been part of one meeting during which time the cars are registered, inspected, and judged for design. Should there be more that want to race than "slightly restrictive" criteria would allow, then they could "draw straws" or some other fair "competition" to see who "won and placed in the unit race."

So you're saying that a smaller unit would not even actually race down the track?

Ya, it sounds silly doesn't it! But the numbers work. The regional race promoters would probably find that such smaller units would gain by the motivation provided by "slightly restrictive" criteria ... prompting small units to join forces to hold a "real" derby.

And I take it here you're saying that several smaller units, i.e. with only 8-15 boys, would join forces for a "unit" derby race?