Dilemma

General race coordinator discussions.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by DerbyAddict »

Cory wrote:
However, people will intimate that there is something wrong with the rules by saying that they are unScouting, or they don't allow enough creativity, or they don't encourage craftsmenship, or they don't allow me to compete because I'm tool impaired.
To which I say "Hooey!"
What they are really saying is "I don't want to/can't/won't spend all that time making a really nice/fast car when I can just buy the pieces and put it together"

Our rules are pretty basic rules but do specify BSA kit, BSA parts, etc. We have some pretty good looking cars made out of the kits, some that are obviously mostly parent made. I know one which would take best of show in just about any race. The boy did some work on it, dad probably did a lot but I know the boy was there every step of the way from initial design (which he showed me) to final coat and wheel mounting. (Not mine, I couldn't cut a square if the first three side were cut for me!) I am envious that something like that can be done with the block of wood. The Scout can explain why the weights are positioned where they are, why you polish the axles, etc. Dad took the time to teach his son what was being done every step of the way.
I sat down with my son and asked if he wanted looks or speed. I explained that if he wanted looks, we would have to work harder and longer because I can't use tools very well. Luckily he opted for speed. But the other kids thought his car (the rail design) looked very cool and he was mighty proud of it.
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Richard Sava
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Deltona, FL
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Any day racing PWD is a good day but winning makes a better good day!
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2kids10horses
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Re: Dilemma

Post by 2kids10horses »

Ok, lets go on with my example...

In our town, there's a company that employs a number of machinists. It's not unusual for one of the Dads to work there, and take the son's PWD axles and/or wheels into the shop to 'clean them up'.

Is THAT legal?

It appears that the consensus is that it's OK for the Cub to use a Pro Wheel Shaver. Am I correct on that? What if it's Dad who does the shaving?

Just asking questions here...
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Re: Dilemma

Post by Packdude »

Rule setting is tough. Like Cory said, the peron(s) setting the rules (should) have the interest of the group (pack, district, etc) in mind. The idea is hopefully to create a level playing field. When I created the rules for our district derby, I worked from the rules of previous years, which were simply the basics included with the kit. There were a few changes/updates, but not many. One thing mentioned in this thread that I intentionally left out of our district rules was regarding the wheel base. I have seen some illegal cars in the past few years and those cars were disqualified. I agree that the pre-made cars should not be allowed, but it is hard to identify them. The one that stuck out most blatently was the car a few years ago that was made from a 2X4. It was noticeably wider than all the other cars so it was easy to DQ. We've also had a car DQ'd because of wheels. I was at a local unit derby a few weeks ago where a few of the parents had rounded the wheels. They looked nice...but I pointed out to them that they wouldn't be allowed to race at district with those wheels. I have someone building a box that we will be able to place the cars into, on the scale, that will give us the weight as well as make sure they meet the clearance, height, width, and length tollerances.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by doct1010 »

2Kids,

As always, you propose some thought provoking scenarios. The answer to your question lies in the abyss of "cub built" and how strict a definition one employs. I doubt seriously anyone would consider the work "illegal". However, one could take "theoretical" issue with it. I am not that much of a purist. (I turned our wheels on a pro shaver, kids hands just not strong enough, yet.) I draw my line with pre-builts and e-bay.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by DerbyAddict »

If the Scout is able to use the tool himself, then the Scout should do the work. If the Scout is too young then the Scout should be there learning why the tool is being used. Remember, age appropriate and as Stan wrote in another thread - "Don't do for the boys what the boys can do for themselves."
Just taking the part to work and doing the work without the Scout knowing why it is being done or there to watch how it is done defeats the prupose of the event, IMHO.

Is it legal? Probably. Is it meeting the purpose of the event or the Aims (building self reliance) and the Methods (assoiciation with adults and personal growth)of Scouting? Not a chance.

From our rules:

The purpose of the Pinewood Derby is to promote sportsmanship and teach new skills. The car should be made as much as possible by the Scout with a parent helping to teach the Scout new skills. This is not an activity to see which parent can build the best car. We will run an Adult/Sibling race for that.

Two years ago, I cut the car, my boy was a Tiger. Last year we chose a design that he could cut with a hand coping saw. This year we did hands on hands with a power jigsaw. Next year he cuts the car with me standing right beside him.
This year he used the Pro Wheel Shaver for a while until his hands got tired. I finished the wheel. It took us 4 or 5 days to do the wheels because he had to work on each wheel.
*****************************
Richard Sava
Cubmaster, Pack 241
Deltona, FL
*****************************
Any day racing PWD is a good day but winning makes a better good day!
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2kids10horses
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Re: Dilemma

Post by 2kids10horses »

Addict...

Just a question, here... where did you get the Pro Wheel Shaver? I looked in my tool box, and I see a couple screwdrivers, a hammer, pliers, and wrenches. But, nope, not a single Pro Wheel Shaver! Rats!

Oh! I see, I can order one! Lessee... that thing costs about 25 bucks, and ya gotta have the Pro Wheel Mandrel, too, I think.

My point here is you went out an bought some specialized tools JUST for making a PWD car. Doesn't that give you an advantage over other Cubs that might not have the spare change to get some?

I'm not casting stones here. I've got some, too.

It's just this whole thing of helping out is NOT a black and white issue.

Just food for thought.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by DerbyAddict »

2k10h -
Good point but in this case no.

All my tools are available at our workshop. I bring all my "specialty tools" (I spent WAY more than 25 bucks) and other common things like graphite to the workshop for people to use. Also included web addresses in the rules for people to go to and get tips.

Made one dad mad about the tools becasuse he had bought some himself and didn't think it was "fair" that he had to pay for them when other people got use mine for free. I smiled a lot, handed him an adult app and said "Thanks for volunteering to run the workshop next year."
*****************************
Richard Sava
Cubmaster, Pack 241
Deltona, FL
*****************************
Any day racing PWD is a good day but winning makes a better good day!
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Re: Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

I also hold three builders work shops where we all have access to the "good tools". Pro wheel shaver and drill press with file for dressing wheels, drill press for shaping and polishing axles, drill press with small diameter twin fluted router bit and x/y axis vice for use as an end mill to route out the cars bodies, scroll saw for the boys to cut their cars out with a blade that can't draw blood if you try, coping saw, band saw for parent use only under my supervision with jigs to hold blocks in a number of common configurations. I keep the lock out keys for the milling /drill press and band saw in my pocket when I'm not able to supervise or do not have an experienced parent to supervise. We also have an assortment of belt sanders and drum sanders in other drill presses. Files and rasps in all shapes and sizes. Jewelers tools, files, magnifying visor, Dremel tools with bit assortment, clamps, body tool jigs, #44 drill bits, safety glasses for all. The tools are provided by several parents and are very available with lots of help for all who come. So time, tools, help, and knowledge are not an excuse for the EZ button. We are not making wood workers; we are learning not to be afraid of tools and trying out ideas that may fail in a safe and supportive environment. Broken or damaged cars can be repaired, modified, and learned from. Failed ideas are learning opportunities. Precut cars can prevent some to most of this interaction.
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2kids10horses
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Re: Dilemma

Post by 2kids10horses »

Addict...

Good one! I too, hold a workshop for the Pack at the Middle School shop.

Anyway, when I handed out the kits this year, I went over the rules for our Council. Our rules state that the parts have to be BSA. I asked them not to buy a car on e-bay. I told them there are lots of tips available from various sources. I told them they can do whatever tips they want, as long as they stay within the rules.

A couple of weeks later, one Dad asked me about "oil". And he stated that "If applied properly, it doesn't affect the track".

With this clue, I deduced that he had discovered NyOil. I told him that, it's true! It's faster! It doesn't foul the track if applied properly! It's not a dry lube, so don't use it.

So, I try to uphold the rules as best we can. Some parents will obviously do more to help than others.

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Re: Dilemma

Post by joe »

Cory wrote:
BigSilver wrote:
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with most of the rule sets out there. However, people will intimate that there is something wrong with the rules by saying that they are unScouting, or they don't allow enough creativity, or they don't encourage craftsmenship, or they don't allow me to compete because I'm tool impaired.

This is a common argumentative trick which takes something that is simply a matter of opinion (e.g. should you be allowed to cone your wheel hubs?) and tries to turn it into a question of ethics or of lofty goals.

PWD rule makers are generally good people who have the interest of the entire group in mind. They are the ones who do the most work, work from which the rest of the group benefits. The least someone can do to help them is to follow the rules.
Sometimes, perhaps! Our district, for years as far as I know, has allowed sanding of the tread to get the treat "flat." As do, I suppose, all 34 Packs in our district. Now, in an obscure additional ruling listed online -- NOT EVEN PRINTED IN THE ROUNDTABLE HANDOUT two weeks ago, they decide that "changing" the diameter of the wheel is unacceptable. Do I tell my sons to take their wheels off and put on unsanded, unchanged wheels out of the box?! especially after all the effort, sanding, alignment, etc. made in good faith? Is this in the interest of the entire group? Smells like ignorance to me.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by Cory »

joe wrote:Now, in an obscure additional ruling listed online -- NOT EVEN PRINTED IN THE ROUNDTABLE HANDOUT two weeks ago, they decide that "changing" the diameter of the wheel is unacceptable.
Agreed, it is not a perfect world.

I have to admit you've made me curious. Specifically, what do you mean by "obscure", what do you mean by "additional" (i.e. did the online version not appear till later, did the obscure ruling not appear till later, etc.) and what do you mean by "ruling" (i.e. why did you use the word "ruling" instead of "rule")?

Could you clarify?

Thanks,
C.
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