Dilemma

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BigSilver
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Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

OK….I need a few opinions on how I should proceed with the following problems.

For background I have two packs that meet together, my pack has about 65 boys and the other pack has about 15. Three cars that showed up at inspection/impound were clearly not BSA kit cars.

Rules excerpt:

Kits: Only cars built from the “Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit” will be eligible for competition. Kits will be available at the January Pack meeting for $4.00 or available at the Council office on the East side of 10th Street West between Ave L and Ave M. Cars built previous years or purchased from someone are ineligible for competition. Please don’t waste your money on an E-bay car and expect it to win…..that’s not the point of Pinewood Derby racing.

The first car is a Bear car in my pack.
I had left a phone message 4 weeks ago with the parents explaining that the Lowe’s derby kit did not meet our rules but offered that we could change out the wheels and axles if a great deal of work had already been done on the body. The car arrived at check in with the non BSA axles and wheels which I explained needed to be replaced. Mom had not passed along the message to dad but the son new the details and corroborated my havening left the message. I helped the father and son replace the axles and wheels with the required BSA parts and it was very apparent that the father and son had done a lot of work to their car including outfitting it with running lights and a lot of other details. The father and son were shown how to prepare their axles and turn their wheels and we turned a disaster into a learning experience.

Second car is a Webelo in my pack. Dad bought a precut kit from Max V and showed up at my workshop with car and parts in hand to weigh in only. I explained that he missed the point of the Derby but he was oblivious to my position. Mom is the den leader.

Car number three is from the other pack and is a Webelo.
It is a premium Pine Car precut kit with BSA wheels and axles. The car had been painted but there had clearly been no substantial work done on the car. The car had not even been filled and sanded. I commented to the boy that he must have had access to quite a wood working shop to have carved such a complex car body and was told that his dad did have an extensive shop. While that boy was giving his answer Dad intervened and hurried the boy and car away from the check in station to go weigh in.


Our rules clearly state the car should be built from the BSA Kit as you can see above. I do not want to DQ anyone from racing and do not believe the third cars is likely to be competitive. The second car is not likely to do well either although the father bought Max-V prepaired BSA wheels and axles so he would be legal.

Car number one is good to go in my opinion. Father and Son built it together and although it in not a BSA block of wood it has the correct wheels and axles.

Cars 2 and 3 are another story and I do not want to allow them to be judged for design awards as the boys only painted their cars. I am torn as to allowing them to race though. The cars this year are very competitive within the Webelos dens and the kit cars will likely not place if allowed to race. I did not immediately disqualify them at check in but both boys and fathers know they broke the rules.

Our design awards are judged by our OA.

What options do you see as being appropriate in this situation.?
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FRANKLIN WHALEY
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Re: Dilemma

Post by FRANKLIN WHALEY »

I think you did a great job handling the situation. So far nobody is upset with the decision. If they are DQ-ed from the design portion, maybe next year they will build from the BSA kit so their car can be eligible for all the awards. I would let them race. Although I would have some reservations about the MAX-V wheels and axles. Our cars are RA cars. They have completely different wheels and the nail heads a rounded. I could spot any after market stuff from fifty feet away. Some of the dads have asked about buying "speed" axles. I'm quick to tell them I know the difference. So far I haven't had to DQ anybody, but I know one day it's coming. Good Luck!
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Re: Dilemma

Post by ranman106 »

BigSilver wrote:
Second car is a Webelo in my pack. Dad bought a precut kit from Max V and showed up at my workshop with car and parts in hand to weigh in only. I explained that he missed the point of the Derby but he was oblivious to my position. Mom is the den leader.

Our rules clearly state the car should be built from the BSA Kit as you can see above. I do not want to DQ anyone from racing and do not believe the third cars is likely to be competitive. The second car is not likely to do well either although the father bought Max-V prepaired BSA wheels and axles so he would be legal.

Cars 2 and 3 are another story and I do not want to allow them to be judged for design awards as the boys only painted their cars. I am torn as to allowing them to race though. The cars this year are very competitive within the Webelos dens and the kit cars will likely not place if allowed to race. I did not immediately disqualify them at check in but both boys and fathers know they broke the rules.

Our design awards are judged by our OA.

What options do you see as being appropriate in this situation.?
You may be very surprised by the MaxV car. Expect it to be fast.
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Tinbendr
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Re: Dilemma

Post by Tinbendr »

You could setup an unlimited category.

Explain to the child/parent the disqualification, but explain it will be entered and raced in an different category.

I wouldn't offer any trophy for this category.

If there are only one or two cars, have some dummy cars for them to race against.
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BigSilver
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Re: Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

Max -V Kit and parts are excelent but it takes some knowlage to assemble it corectly. Wheels are good, weight is off, axles are tight to wheels and body. :?
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ronin718
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Re: Dilemma

Post by ronin718 »

You're opening yourself up to lots of squawking if you allow the Lowe's car to compete and not the Pinecar. One could legitimately argue that neither meet the "Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby kit" requirement, so neither should be allowed.

That said, you did a fine job of handling these issues. I would've been much less PC in saying "not BSA, not playing". I'm too much of a retired military hard case, I guess.

We had our District race this last weekend, and we noticed after the Bear race (but before announcing the results) that the winner had run an extended WB car contrary to the rules. Since we hadn't announced yet, we simply bumped everyone up one spot and gave the car back to the boy.
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BigSilver
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Re: Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

Well,
Here is the final report on our Pack's PWD.
Son's car (Bear) finished first place. Son polished his own axles and hand lathed his own wheels and then some. He also milled his car body out of the block, glued in the weights, glued on the upper and lower skins, and painted his car. I helped with the alignment and son learned a lot about building this year. 8)
V-Max kit car with BSA speed axles and BSA machined wheels finished second (Webelo 1). Boy learned dad can buy a race. :roll:
Tight axle got bumped loose some where between den heats and grand championship races. I learned the hard way I will outlaw the precut kit cars, purchased axles and purchased wheels next year. Yes it will be hard to enforce. I just want the field to be level and reward those who do it themselves and gain the most from the experience.
Third (Tiger) and Fourth (Bear) place cars were brothers, boys and father built at my workshops. :D All four cars were so close that we would not have been able to judge effectively without optical gate. My son's car only lost one race to the third place car. Total races for the finals consisted of six races each for den sort, six more for prefect 7 run off at den level. Six in Grand Champ sort, six more for perfect 7 run off. 24 total runs. For the Pack we had 51 cars total including one turtle for the tiger races. All cars were fast this year. None came close to not crossing the finish line other than the turtle. Tide of knowledge lifts all boats / cars. Received lots of great positive comments from parents on race scheduling, projector display of race results, quality of cars. Kit cars were not allowed to be judged for design awards. Rules will be tighter next year and WIDELY announced. We did need to run one car backwards due to needle nose that would not stay staged on starting peg. All in all a great PWD. Thanks for all the assistance and good comments from the web site here and thanks to all my volunteers who now may be reading this here. The overwhelming message this year was that we build cars to build character and knowledge. Special thanks to Stan for reviewing the staging charts and offering his expert opinion. Oh, one final note. We had a parent comment that the leaders sons' cars were all in the final race (not true) and another parent replied that the leaders are the ones that spend the most time with their boys and that they also spend the most time making the pack program a success for all the boys. :D Our parents are getting the message and sharing it.....Invest time in your son’s future now. A couple of parents asked me why my son's car won. I told the parents to ask my son. My son told them the details of how he built his car and why it did well without hesitation.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by Stan Pope »

BigSilver wrote:A couple of parents asked me why my son's car won. I told the parents to ask my son. My son told them the details of how he built his car and why it did well without hesitation.
Right answer!!! :)

Congrats!
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ranman106
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Re: Dilemma

Post by ranman106 »

BigSilver wrote:Max-V kit car with BSA speed axles and BSA machined wheels finished second (Webelo 1). Boy learned dad can buy a race. :roll:
Knew it would be fast. Which kit was it? Special congrats to your son! :clap:
BigSilver wrote:Tight axle got bumped loose some where between den heats and grand championship races. I learned the hard way I will outlaw the precut kit cars, purchased axles and purchased wheels next year. Yes it will be hard to enforce. I just want the field to be level and reward those who do it themselves and gain the most from the experience.
note.
How do you plan to do this? Only cars built at workshops can race? What about the BSA speed axles sold at the Scout Shop? I am looking for ideas myself.
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2kids10horses
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Re: Dilemma

Post by 2kids10horses »

Ya know, it's usually pretty obvious when a pre-cut car comes in. Just tell the judges that it's a precut, and it shouldn't place for show.

Our scout shop sells some precuts. How can you make them illegal? Same with the speed axles that come in "Speed kit" they sell at the Scout shop.

Our Pack gives the kits to the boys at the December Pack meeting. That prevents the 'Non BSA' kit problem.

There will never be 'equal' components when it comes to PWD cars. Some kids will weight with lead, some nickel, some tungsten. Some kids will lube with graphite, some with graphite/moly, some NyOil, etc.

Let's just (for the sake of argument) that Graphite/moly is faster than graphite. Should it be banned? Maybe it's more expensive. Or maybe you can only get it on e-bay. Whatever. Should it be legal?

Or, let's assume that polishing axles with Mother's makes the car faster. One parent discovers the tip, and they polish with Mother's and the car wins. Did they cheat? What if the jar of Mother's costs $50? Since it's now pretty expensive, and they didn't make the Mother's themselves, did they cheat?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Yeah, I know we all want each kid to have a chance to win. But we also want to encourage research into the problem!

Let's say that one kid figures out that really good lathed wheels are faster than wheels he can sand himself. He doesn't have a lathe. Or a drill press. But, he can save his allowance money, and buy a set of good lathed wheels off e-bay. Let's say he worked extra jobs around the house, saved his money, and bought a winning set of wheels. He does the rest of the car himself with Dad's help.

Should those wheels he's worked hard for be disqualified?

Not in my book! He's learned that he can work for what he needs. He can be rewarded for hard work. He did his best.

Now, I WOULD draw the line if he spent wad on a pre-built ebay car. But if he did most of the work and worked for a component or two, I think it should be allowed.

Just my H. O.

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Re: Dilemma

Post by MaxV »

I guess I'll jump in here since my kits are mentioned.

At our race, pre-cut kits are allowed to race, but are disqualified from design awards. But caution needs to be exercised. Many people build cars from scratch using our plans, or build look-alikes. So even though a car looks like a "Wedge SE Kit Car from MV" does not mean that the parent/child team didn't build it from scratch. I saw this happen at our last race. The child and their parent built a car that looked just like a PineCar pre-cut kit, but I knew it was built from scratch because most of it was done at our workshops.

Another point that needs to be made is that buying components from us or another company does not equate to automatically having a fast car. The builder still must assemble the kit, properly prepare the wheels/axles, lube, mount the wheels/axles, and align. The kit components certainly help (and speed up the process), but they certainly do not a guarantee a trophy.

I encourage all parents to build their own car. When people call and ask what they need, I encourage them to purchase plans and speed supplies. But, clearly many people are either: (1) Overwhelmed by the thought of drilling and cutting, (2) do not have any woodworking tools, or (3) waited until the last minute.

So we do sell a lot of kits. This isn't the optimum, but I believe that it is better for a child to have an entry made from a kit, than to have no entry at all, or to have an entry that is so poorly made that it doesn't make it to the finish line.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

Max-V
I agree with your points. My objective is for the boys to learn how to use the tools, starting with the one between their ears.... read the rules and follow them. A good engineer understands the rules and figures out how to use them to his or her advantage. I want to encourage them to learn and grow and not take the short cuts and be rewarded for deep pockets and lack of interest. The boy who saves his money and purchases his machined wheels is not learning the manufacturing process unless he uses the wheels as a gage for his own work or learns how they were manufactured as his goal. If the goal is to use them against the rules to win that is a problem. There are times when the rules need to be interpreted in favor of participation and I tried to do that at this race. There are also times when the intent of the builder and origin of the components will not be apparent and you must rely on the boy’s and parent’s answers and emphasize the spirit of Scouting and the goals of the Pinewood Derby. We excluded the kit cars from the design awards as you do and they were clearly kit cars, no sanding, filling, and no change in any details. In fact my son chose your speeder design for the basis of his car. We purchased your speeder kit and then built our entry completely from scratch with a number of improvements based on our goals. I have recommended and purchased several of your products for the purpose of learning, within the rules of our race and for building our unlimited class cars. I do not want to give the impression I do not support our vendors in any way. I understand that some parents will take the short cut regardless of the situation and that is the problem I am addressing. I don't want to reduce the boy's ability to innovate, work for his success or dumb down the race. To that end I have pushed the workshops, distribute extensive information and have a standing offer of help to any boy who needs assistance with his car. I even helped out the 2nd place winner with graphite. This year the boys, who used the kit cars, had the opportunity to learn and grow and they or their parents chose not to or they failed to read the rules. That is the issue and as someone said you can lead the horse but you can’t make him drink. The majority of the boys built their cars and a large number of parents helped their sons build their cars to varying degrees. All had fun. Hopefully all learned something from the event. By changing next years rules my objective was to encourage parents and boys to do their homework for themselves and not push the EZ button.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by 2kids10horses »

BigSilver,

I appreciate your points, but I have to take issue with some of them. The point of PWD is not to develop skilled wood workers or skilled machinists.

The point is to foster parent/child relationships, working together as a team. If the child understands why the machined wheels are better, and works for them, I have no problem with him using them as long as they qualify with no illegal modifications.

In our Pack, I have arranged for the Cubs to have access to the Middle School shop to carve their cars. The Shop has a band saw, a drill press, and a power sander. I brought in Fortner drill bits so anyone could hollow out their block if they wanted. In fact, the Middle School shop teacher actually did all the basic carving using the band saw. Should all the kids be disqualified? Neither they nor their Dads cut the blocks. What say you?

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BigSilver
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Re: Dilemma

Post by BigSilver »

If the pack rules state you use the BSA kit and only the BSA kit you should not go out and buy machined wheels from any source to use on your car. If the rules state, “use the BSA kit” you don't buy a pre cut car body. You understand that machined wheels are likely better or that a pre cut car body will save you time but you follow the rules. I'm not taking issue with hard work for self made wheels or boy earned cash. You are right that the goal of pine wood derby is to get parents and boys together as a team and purchasing a pre cut kit or machined axles and wheels diminishes that interaction in my opinion. There are varying degrees of kit finish but they all tend to reduce the parent boy interaction and limit the learning process. Just because you can afford to buy the best shouldn't allow you to break the rules. Parents or Akila cutting the cars for the boys on a band saw is appropriate as long as the boys have input to the design of the car. I didn't mean for this to turn into a rant so I will step down from my soap box now.
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Re: Dilemma

Post by Cory »

BigSilver wrote:Just because you can afford to buy the best shouldn't allow you to break the rules.
BigSilver, I'm w/ you on this one. Too many people justify rule bending and rule breaking by citing what they claim are higher goals and principles.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with most of the rule sets out there. However, people will intimate that there is something wrong with the rules by saying that they are unScouting, or they don't allow enough creativity, or they don't encourage craftsmenship, or they don't allow me to compete because I'm tool impaired.

This is a common argumentative trick which takes something that is simply a matter of opinion (e.g. should you be allowed to cone your wheel hubs?) and tries to turn it into a question of ethics or of lofty goals.

PWD rule makers are generally good people who have the interest of the entire group in mind. They are the ones who do the most work, work from which the rest of the group benefits. The least someone can do to help them is to follow the rules.

That and help clean up on Race Day. :)
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